Rob Minkoff On the Future of Animation in the Age of AI

Orlando Wood (00:00)

Rob Minkoff is a master craftsman. Rob’s career spans some of the most

beloved animated and live action films of the last 30 years. But what

makes him truly remarkable isn’t just his resume, it’s that he’s still

hungry to experiment, and most importantly, to evolve. He drew his way

into Disney through CalArts and has spent a lifetime working across

animation, CG, and live action, directing blockbuster family films

like The Lion King, Stuart Little, and Paws of Fury.

But I think what’s most inspiring about Rob isn’t just the scale of

his work, it’s his mindset. In many respects, he’s exactly the type of

artist who should be most fearful of AI. But he’s not fearful. He’s

emboldened by it. This week, we talk about what it means to stay

curious as a filmmaker, how real artists adapt to new tools, and why

animation has always lived on the frontier of technology. Rob’s proof

that the future still belongs to the craftsman. Just as long as the

craftsman keep learning, and most importantly,

Stay curious. I hope you enjoy this episode as much as I did.

Orlando Wood (01:08)

I was really like kind of looking through your work. It’s amazing to

me that there’s kind of nothing you haven’t touched or tried, you

know, and the animation work by itself, you know, you’ve got very much

kind of gag based animation, you know, and then you’ve got very

cinematic animation in the Lion King, you know, you’ve got 3D and CG

animation in the haunted, Haunted Mansion and, Stuart Little.

You’ve then also done incredible CG work in action films in the

Forbidden Kingdom. then as well, kind of bringing it all together, I

watched Paws of Fury just probably nine months ago, which is just such

a fun one that both feels cinematic. It feels there’s lots of really

good gags. There’s really good meta gags in it too.

I find it remarkable how many different things you’ve tried. Do you

get restless?

Rob Minkoff (01:54)

think that’s part of it for sure. I don’t know that it was done by

design, but I think right from the beginning.

I studied animation, as you mentioned, at CalArts, and I learned how

to do traditional drawn animation with pencils and paper and sort of

do things the old fashioned way. And very early in my career,

computers became very important to the production of animated films.

We were doing some of the experimenting with different sequences in

some of these more traditional films. And I guess that just sort of

led naturally to be interested in all kinds of different varieties

Orlando Wood (02:05)Mm. Mm.

Rob Minkoff (02:27)

of techniques and having the opportunity to explore them in a way was

sort of like.

I guess it was sort of being in the right place at the right time

because those things hadn’t been done before. you know, when you’re

approaching something that hadn’t been done before, you get the extra

kind of excitement about sort of being a pioneer and trying to do

things that haven’t been done before. And I guess I’ve always

responded in a way to those kinds of artistic challenges, to sort of

going into it and not really knowing exactly how we’re going to do it

and having to figure it out as we go along, I think has been part of

the attraction.

Orlando Wood (03:05)

Right. I mean, does it change the way you approach a project? know, if

you are doing something that is more gaggy versus something that’s

more cinematic, how do you frame yourself as a director when you’re

approaching those challenges?

Rob Minkoff (03:16)

the creative process is part of the experience of making any film,

especially…

as a director because what you’re trying to do in a sense is make a

film that has never been made before. And of course you’re using the

language of film. So of course all the things that you’re doing have

been done before in a version in some kind of fashion. But a lot of it

is trying to figure out what makes sense for the particular piece that

you’re working on. So for instance on Lion King, the very earliest

versions of the film were very serious.

there were much less humor in them. And what we found when we put the

story wheel together, we would play it and we found that the overall

tone of it was too heavy or just, it needed that comedy relief, which

is interesting because people use that term without thinking that what

it actually means is.

the relief from tragedy, comedy relief. And it goes back to

Shakespeare. you sort of go, I mean, probably before, but you sort of

say, you have a story and it can get very heavy. And what the audience

really needs is that change of pace or that change of mood, which

allows the audience to sort of experience a kind of a range of

emotions throughout the course of the story.

Orlando Wood (04:34)

Right. And do you find, know, what amazes me about that is for

animation, because the production timeline is so long, it always means

that when a joke works in animation, that seems to me to be a miracle.

Because if you’re talking about something that was seeded two and a

half years ago or three years ago, it is a miracle.Right. And do you find, know, what amazes me about that is for

animation, because the production timeline is so long, it always means

that when a joke works in animation, that seems to me to be a miracle.

Because if you’re talking about something that was seeded two and a

half years ago or three years ago, it is a miracle.

Rob Minkoff (04:51)

it’s interesting

because one of the things

that we all discovered quite early in our careers is that, you know,

seeing a joke for the first time, you get your biggest laugh. And

every time you watch it after that, it gets to be less and less. And

very often when you’re working in a studio, especially, and you’re

having to show the work to other people, very often they’ll laugh the

first time. And then on a second or third or fourth viewing, pretty

soon they’ll be saying, that joke’s not funny. And you’ll say, no, no,

no.

It is funny. You just you just didn’t you know, you you laughed at it

the first time and it still is funny and it’s gonna work for the

audience but You’ve gotten over the joke, right? You know the

punchline So, of course you’re not gonna laugh and and but that

doesn’t mean the joke isn’t funny so working in the studio is it makes

it particularly challenging because You know, especially that as you

said animation could be made over such a long period of time You don’t

want to lose the sense of why things were good

Orlando Wood (05:47)

Mm.

Rob Minkoff (05:47)

you know, a year or two or three earlier. And often, you know, in the

search of trying to make the best work, you know, you’ll, you’ll,

you’ll, you know, I always use the term kick the tires, you know, you

sort of like, you’re testing it out, you’re seeing if it works. But

you don’t want to ever throw the baby out with the bathwater. That was

an expression that I learned early in my career. Because again, as

you’re developing a story, you know, people sometimes lose sight of

the thing that they love

about it in the first place. And so, the temptation is to throw the

baby out with the bathwater. And of course, that’s never good for the

development of a story.

Orlando Wood (06:24)

Yeah, and nothing kills a joke faster than having to explain the

physics of it over and over and over again.

Rob Minkoff (06:29)

Absolutely, yes. Yeah.Orlando Wood (06:31)

⁓

yeah, it seems that animation, especially at the studio level, kind

of, we hear a lot about development hell. it seems that animation

actually has to grow in that soil. you know, it’s, it’s, it has to

find a way to take that development process and make that the entire

production out of it.

Rob Minkoff (06:41)

Yeah.

Yeah,

but a big there’s a critical, you know key differentiator, you know

when people talk about development hell it sort of means that you

never get out of development you’re stuck there and you’re forced to

go around in circles and circles and circles and circles you’re trying

to figure out what’s the magic formula what’s the key that’s gonna

unlock this the project because at the end of the day if you’re in

development it means you haven’t yet been greenlit

So the difference, the huge difference about studio animation is that

typically a green light has to be given to the project well in advance

of it being ready to go ⁓ just because it requires so much time,

effort, and energy, so many people, so much money, frankly, at least

in the way it’s been practiced up to now, that…

Orlando Wood (07:23)

Right.

Rob Minkoff (07:32)

What made sense for the studios was to just say, we know we have a

release window and we’re gonna basically green light this animated

movie and now we gotta make the movie. So that’s a much different kind

of a proposition because if you know you’re making the movie, you’re

kind of not in what you could say is development hell because

development hell means you never get out.

Orlando Wood (07:53)

Right,

I see. Right. And do you find, having worked at Disney, which seems to

be the soul’s home of animation, do you find that one of the reasons

that some of the other studios, when they dip their toe into

animation, sometimes it’s a mindset difference? mean, obviously, if

we’re talking about making things work over successive iterations, do

you find that

that there’s a natural open mind at Disney to that process and other

studios have to get themselves there.that there’s a natural open mind at Disney to that process and other

studios have to get themselves there.

Rob Minkoff (08:23)

I mean…

Great question. I do think that all the studios by and large Do a

similar very similar process which is you know, you it’s an iterative

process, right? So you get the project up to a certain point where

maybe the script is Greenlighted right and then the studio says let’s

let’s actually you know start making the film and and again because

it’s a very slow deliberate process There’s gonna be iteration. So

you’re gonna do you know the character designs and the world builds

and the production designs and then you’re going to do some test

animation and then obviously you’re storyboarding the script but

you’re cutting it together and the big difference between animation

and live action is that in animation you can look at a story reel and

make fairly sweeping decisions about the movie and make significant

changes to the story and the script in production and the reason for

that is in a live action

Orlando Wood (09:16)

Mm-hmm.

Rob Minkoff (09:18)

film, know, it the most the biggest expense of the film is production,

right? When you go out and you shoot footage, you hire your actors.

And again, you’ve got a huge number of artisans, you’ve built sets or

whatever. And so you’re out there and every single day you’re on the

set costs a huge amount of money. So you can imagine the studios don’t

want to hear that there’s a problem, you know, or there’s a story

problem or there’s, know, like and it does happen on live action

films, but it becomes kind of a hair raising

Orlando Wood (09:39)

Right.

Yeah.

Rob Minkoff (09:46)

experience because if there are major

big problems with the story, it’s so expensive and so, you know, it

could be disastrous. And so, typically in a live action film, they’re

gonna wanna make sure the script is in a more developed state, that

people feel more confident. That doesn’t mean it always happens, but

they wanna feel more confident about the script. And then when the

shoot is happening, obviously the dailies are coming in, everybody’s

reviewing them. You you can make course corrections, but they’re

relatively minor course corrections.could be disastrous. And so, typically in a live action film, they’re

gonna wanna make sure the script is in a more developed state, that

people feel more confident. That doesn’t mean it always happens, but

they wanna feel more confident about the script. And then when the

shoot is happening, obviously the dailies are coming in, everybody’s

reviewing them. You you can make course corrections, but they’re

relatively minor course corrections.

However, in animation when you do a story reel you haven’t animated it

yet, right? You’ve done the story reel you can actually watch it and

you can get you know your team to watch it and you know if you realize

that there may be big issues with the story you can change make those

changes without the the expense of Production because once you’ve

figured out your movie and animation that’s when you make it right so

you only make as much footage as you need to make the film and

live action, you shoot thousands and thousands of feet of film more

than you or video, whatever, you record it.

more than you need and what you do, the reason you do that is because

you then have a lot more latitude in the editing room. So that, you

know, if there are issues, once you do your director’s cut, which is

obviously by definition is gonna be much longer than the movie will be

released, because you put everything in it and then suddenly you’re

able to kind of make choices in the editing room to finesse the film.

And there’s a lot that can be done in a live action film to change.

the tone of the film, the storytelling, the pacing, all that stuff.

But you can’t do that in animation. You literally have to cut it

together, you have to lock it, and then you say, let’s now go animate

it. Then you’re doing one shot at a time, you’re piecing it all

together, and although you can make smaller changes, you really can’t

make sweeping changes, and nobody wants you to make sweeping changes.

So it’s really a different kind of discipline.

Orlando Wood (11:38)

⁓ But you’re sort of honing

in sequentially, aren’t you? You’re kind of, you’re, once you get to

the final product, you’ve had latitude at each stage enough that you

can zero in on the bullseye by the end.

Rob Minkoff (11:51)

Yes, but in live action versus animation, live action, you’re going to

play your finished film for an audience and you’re going to get

feedback and then you’re going to maybe make some changes. In

animation, you’re going to play that story reel, which is actually

much more difficult to look at because it’s just drawings, still

drawings cut together with music and sound effects and all the rest of

it. But it’s not the animated film, but it gives you a sense of it.

It’s a facsimile of it. And it allows you to, again, to look

at it and then make creative judgments about it and say, you know,

maybe we could do better here. This joke doesn’t land. Let’s rewrite

that or do this. And then you can re-record the actors or maybe you’ll

record it for the first time. And then you do the animation. And then

once you’re that process, then it’s very expensive.at it and then make creative judgments about it and say, you know,

maybe we could do better here. This joke doesn’t land. Let’s rewrite

that or do this. And then you can re-record the actors or maybe you’ll

record it for the first time. And then you do the animation. And then

once you’re that process, then it’s very expensive.

Orlando Wood (12:24)

Yeah.

Yeah, because something that works at one stage may not work at the

next. Something you’re in the V.O. room, a line gets read brilliantly,

you then put it on the reel, you go, oh, it’s working here. Then you

start animating and then texturing and then doing the lighting on the

texture and all those things. And at a certain point, then the joke

doesn’t work. you know, and yeah. Yeah.

Rob Minkoff (12:53)

It’s, yes, I mean, any of those things are possible. And again, you’re

looking at it at different stages and making judgments about it. So

even when you get very close to finishing the film, you’ll still play

it for audiences, whether they’re audiences of the people who made the

movie or making the movie, or whether you go out and you actually do a

recruited screening where you’re gonna watch it again. And you you see

it and you sort of go, oh, you know, this idea or that could be

better, or maybe it doesn’t, isn’t clear. you know, there’s, again,

you sort of think of it, like I said,

all about the creative process. Because you don’t… The creative

process doesn’t really end until the movie gets released. You know, up

until the last… You know, and that’s true in both mediums. I mean

live-action or animation. Because you want to make it as good as you

can be and you know, you’re gonna always be making those judgments as

you go.

Orlando Wood (13:29)

Yeah.

your path through as an animator, you were a character animator and

designer and you did a lot of the animation work. And then when you

switch to become an animation director, what’s the muscle that you

start flexing when you make that shift?

Rob Minkoff (13:58)

I mean, it’s interesting. Early in my career, so I started at Disney,

I was in what was called an in-betweener, which meant you, an animator

did all the main drawings and then an in-betweener added more drawings

to create, you know, the speed or the tempo. And it’s a very laborious

kind of job. But even though I had done that,

Orlando Wood (14:10)

All right, okay, yeah.

Rob Minkoff (14:16)maybe within six months, I was given an opportunity to do character

design on the new project that was just in development, hadn’t been

greenlit yet. And I got to suddenly be in a room of maybe a dozen

people and going through the storyboards where you’re actually looking

at the movie. And again, an animation is a very collaborative medium.

And so often people would open up the room for comments. And so what I

found is that I had a lot of opinions about how the story was being

told.

And then I moved from there back into animation and was being a

supervising animator on one of the lead characters. And in that case,

you’re really just focused on the scene and it’s much more akin to

being an actor in a movie, right? An actor who’s in a movie.

is going to be focused on what they bring to it. Their performance,

know, their character. They may question the director about what the

scene is about and how to play a scene or whatever. But they’re going

to be really focused on their performance, not necessarily the whole

movie. Some actors certainly because of their success can get involved

in those higher level conversations and discussions about the story

and the movie and bigger issues. Some of them become directors. Some

of them become producers. Again,

because you know people kind of grow into that. So what I found in

those early experiences where I was just you know in a room of a dozen

people that I was much more excited about the storytelling. Obviously

the performance was exciting too but very different and so so that

really is the biggest difference. So as an animator you’re really

focused on performance and as a director you’re focused on the story.

Orlando Wood (15:48)

And was Disney a nurturing environment for that? mean, was the

attitude there, hey, listen, we’re looking for you to grow. The moment

you’re ready to grow, we’re here to help provide that path for you.

Rob Minkoff (16:01)

Yeah, yeah,

you know, at that time, especially there was this notion that, you

know,

everybody was promoted from the bottom up, right? And so it didn’t

matter what the job was. You typically would start at Disney in

whatever role was kind of the starter role, and then you could evolve

into more of a senior position or maybe focused on one thing or

another. It may not be, I think almost everybody came in, well, not

everybody, but many came in as an in-betweener, but then found their

niche.

Maybe it was visual effects, maybe it was storyboarding or a variety

of different kind of functions. But yes, absolutely. But then I think

more and more the industry and the medium opened to the idea that

anyone can make an animated film. You don’t have to be an animator to

make an animated film.Maybe it was visual effects, maybe it was storyboarding or a variety

of different kind of functions. But yes, absolutely. But then I think

more and more the industry and the medium opened to the idea that

anyone can make an animated film. You don’t have to be an animator to

make an animated film.

Orlando Wood (16:49)

And I mean, you then had experience because you saw you worked on the

the Brave Little Toaster. That wasn’t a Disney or it wasn’t that John

Lasseter did that. And so did you leave or what was

Rob Minkoff (16:59)

No,

yes. So John Lasseter started that project. He was going to direct

that project at Disney before he left to go to Pixar. And

coincidentally, my first week at Disney was actually John’s last week

at Disney in Burbank. So I actually met John the week before he moved

up to the Bay Area to start working at Pixar. ⁓ mean, was, you know,

so because of that, obviously I’ve been following, you know, from the

very beginning, kind of the history

Orlando Wood (17:21)

Right, okay.

Rob Minkoff (17:27)

of computer animation.

So Brave Little Toaster was John’s project, but it didn’t get

greenlit. Tom Wilhite, who was actually running the studio.

the time who put the movie Splash into development and then put and

then wanted the Brave Little Toaster to go. Tom actually left Disney

and he became he was the producer of the Brave Little Toaster and they

ended up bringing on a director named Jerry Rees who I know obviously

also for a very long time of another CalArts graduate from a few

several years earlier than I was and Jerry actually interestingly had

partnered himself with Brad Bird initially

working together to develop an animated version of a very popular, at

least among animators, comic book called The Spirit by Will Eisner.

And they were both up north in the Bay Area working with the producer

Gary Kurtz who had produced the original Star Wars.

Orlando Wood (18:11)

yeah. Yeah.

Mm.

Rob Minkoff (18:18)

and they were trying to get that movie off the ground and I got an

invitation to go meet with them up in the Bay Area and I did and they

showed me some of the work that they were doing and some of the great

animators at Disney had contributed because there was this idea that

maybe they were gonna make this movie and be able to employ a lot of

different people. And so that’s how I originally met Brad, both Brad

and Jerry and they also showed me this reel of a thing called Family

Dog whichand they were trying to get that movie off the ground and I got an

invitation to go meet with them up in the Bay Area and I did and they

showed me some of the work that they were doing and some of the great

animators at Disney had contributed because there was this idea that

maybe they were gonna make this movie and be able to employ a lot of

different people. And so that’s how I originally met Brad, both Brad

and Jerry and they also showed me this reel of a thing called Family

Dog which

Brad Bird ended up directing as an episode of Amazing Stories. I did

some freelance, even though I was working at Disney, did some

freelance for Brad as an animator on that short. And then when Jerry

was putting his team together for the Brave Little Toaster, a couple

of obviously very close friends were already working on it, one of

whom was a guy named Joe Ranft, who was one of the great animation

story artists, very influential person.

Orlando Wood (18:55)

Mm-hmm.

Rob Minkoff (19:10)

may have recommended me and a couple other people Brian McEntee who

was who ended up becoming the production designer on Beauty and the

Beast. Anyway there was a small team of sort of CalArts grads. I

talked to Don Hahn who was sort of head of production at the time. I

don’t think he was producing yet but Don ended up producing the

animation for the Roger Rabbit feature and then he also did the Roger

Shorts.

and then he did Beauty and the Beast and then Lion King. obviously I

worked with Don quite a lot. So I remember going to Don and saying,

I’ve got this opportunity to go do character designs for this movie,

The Brave Little Toaster, which he knew about because it had been a

Disney project. And he said,

He said, you should go because things were really slow at the time. I

don’t think anything was in the in production at Disney at that

moment. But I was very nervous about leaving because I thought, my

God, I’m going to, you know, it was always my dream as a kid to work

at Disney. Here I was. I got my got the job that I wanted. And

suddenly I was like, I may leave. And but Don said. I can’t remember

if he said it before after he probably before he just said, don’t

worry, he said that your job will be waiting for you.

Orlando Wood (20:00)

Yeah.

Yeah.

well that’s amazing, yeah.Rob Minkoff (20:14)

Yeah, incredible. I was able to leave. I think I only worked for a

couple months on the Brave Little Toaster. And then the whole team

actually went to Taiwan to go do the production on the movie and I got

invited to go, but I decided I wasn’t ready to go to Taiwan. So I went

back to Burbank and started up again.

Orlando Wood (20:19)

Mm, right.

Right. Right. Fair enough.

if you could kind of pick the difference in cultures when you do leave

Disney and obviously hallowed ground for animators, was there a

similar culture at these other places? I know a lot of people were

CalArts people Were there things that you felt?

Disney was starting to get wrong or that they got right that everybody

else didn’t understand.

Rob Minkoff (20:47)

No, I mean…

I think, know, again, what was interesting when I started, there were

really no other competitors, right? There was nobody else making

animated features on a regular basis except at Disney.

maybe Miyazaki in Japan, but there were very few, if any, competitors.

So obviously once things started to open up in the industry and people

started to recognize that animation was a popular art form. Again,

when I started at Disney, there was this notion that the animation era

had come to an end, right? That Disney had had its golden age and it

was really kind of…

kind of fading out and it was sort of going the way of the dinosaur.

But there were obviously a lot of young, talented guys who really

believed in the medium and felt that animation could do a lot of

incredible things. It just wasn’t being given the opportunity to do it

and that Disney had become very…

static in a way or frozen in its, in its, you know, not really

chances. It’s heritage, but just there was this, there was just a

sensibility about it that didn’t, wasn’t really in touch with the

younger audience. And I think that again, I think some of us really

believed in the medium and just felt like the animation could be,

could tell any kind of story. It’s, one of the reasons I think

animation actually is, has the biggest growth potential of all the

filmmaking mediums, because so little in a

Orlando Wood (21:40)Heritage. Right.

Rob Minkoff (22:05)

sense has been done in animation compared to the world of live action

where you know millions of movies have been made in animation it’s

really a very small amount and most of it has been made geared towards

families and children so as a medium it’s got this untapped potential

I think that will allow it to grow into you know even even a more

important place in the in the industry

Orlando Wood (22:28)

Yeah, and I guess it’s because of the expense that’s required to go

into it. It has to point at an audience that it can rely on. That’s

the,

Rob Minkoff (22:36)

Well, that’s how it’s that’s for sure how it has been. And I think,

you

know, now we’re heading into this uncharted territory of AI where, you

know, these tools are very powerful and can make bring the cost down

so dramatically.

And it’s a very fraught time right now. Obviously, people are very

scared about what it means and what will happen. But I think wherever

there’s this kind of change, this kind of transformation, obviously

there’s opportunity too.

Orlando Wood (23:03)

Yeah, I’m glad you brought it up, because I would have gone into the

Katzenberg-Eisner years and just picked your brain for ages about

that. But yeah, I mean, I’m very keen to chat to you about AI. you’ve

really embraced it. I’ve seen you on, panels at various, festivals

speaking very intelligently about the opportunity.

As well as the threats, obviously, I it would be silly not to

recognize them, but I think that, you know, you’ve been quite vocal

about what the opportunity means for creators. if we had had this chat

two days ago, it would have been different. yesterday, VO3 released by

Google where you can prompt your way into a scene that also includes

voiceover background, diegetic sound and things like that,

so many of these studios have been working on user generated content

for a really long time, figuring out what the sandbox looks like that

would allow users and people outside of their ecosystem to be able to

play around with, whether it’s the Hanna-Barbera properties or certain

Disney characters. a lot of that is based on the idea that they would

give away certain assets for people to create with them.

I think that one of things that’s a little bit scary now is that those

assets are now basically able to be copied en masse very easily.I think that one of things that’s a little bit scary now is that those

assets are now basically able to be copied en masse very easily.

Rob Minkoff (24:12)

there’s sort of two different things to think about. One is training

data, which is how have these models been trained to do what they do,

and for the most part, many or most of them have been trained on

copyrighted material that lives on the internet, and they didn’t do

it.

you know, with any system in place except they just scraped the

internet and then they fed it into the model to learn.

That’s one issue and then the other issue is the output and if the

output is is copied or similar or the same You cannot get the

copyright office to approve it or to give you a copyright and in fact,

it can be it is absolutely an infringement so clearly the infringing

Area is more for the output than than the than the input and of course

there are People are complaining about the fact that that that some of

their materials have been used

without their knowledge or without payment to train the models and now

these models may in fact pose a direct threat to their livelihoods. So

this a lot it’s a big issue obviously and it’s to get sorted out and I

think they’re in the middle of doing that right now. I don’t know how

quickly they’ll be able to sort it out but you know these are the

issues that are gonna govern you know how the medium develops.

Orlando Wood (25:28)

Yeah, because it occurs to me that if Disney spends a lot of money

doing, you know, let’s say another Marvel movie, and then I go away on

some new Marvel character and I create 22 episodes within the next

three months of something, yeah.

Rob Minkoff (25:42)

You can’t, mean still,

if you’re creating characters that are Marvel, that are copyrighted by

Disney or any other company, that’s an infringement and they can just,

they can shut you down. Now again, they may have, because it’s gonna

happen so quickly, but YouTube for long time has taken stuff down as

long as if companies go out and say, no, no, no, no, that’s an

infringement, they’ll just take it down. So that won’t stop. That may

get, that may get faster.

Orlando Wood (25:46)

Mm, mm, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.Rob Minkoff (26:07)

But but again, you can’t really go you can’t really justify saying I’m

gonna take this and again the opportunity I think in in all of this is

that Major studios have become very risk-averse and so what they’re

likely to spend their money on is content. That’s So making Marvel

movies obviously make sense or series or any of the other IP that they

already have

and they want to exploit so they’ll do reboots or sequels, etc. And

that’s a lot more risk averse than trying to launch original IP. So I

think that where the opportunity is in the medium is in creators being

able to launch original IP because the cost will be brought down to a

level that isn’t going to make it impossible to kind of create new

works. And I think that the audience currently is somewhat underserved

by

a system that has kind of focused in on itself and its history rather

than looking outward at new ideas and new creations, new IP.

Orlando Wood (27:04)

Yeah, because it seems to me that animators have always been a tech

forward bunch. I mean, from the sort of the multi-plane camera to, you

know, obviously the digital revolution Beauty and the Beast had the

first fully computer generated scene done by your friend, I think,

from CalArts. ⁓

Rob Minkoff (27:22)

Actually

Kirk and Gary who both directed the movie I knew from CalArts, but

actually I knew Kirk from We we grew up in the same hometown Yeah, so

we we met in a we were backstage at a Children’s theater production of

Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs that we both happen to be cast in

ironically

Orlando Wood (27:27)

You went to high school. right. Yeah. Awesome.

Yeah.

Rob Minkoff (27:39)

⁓

Orlando Wood (27:39)

Yeah.

Rob Minkoff (27:39)

in Palo Alto and we discovered that we both love drawing and animation

and then we became friends around that so we’ve been friends for very

long time.in Palo Alto and we discovered that we both love drawing and animation

and then we became friends around that so we’ve been friends for very

long time.

Orlando Wood (27:47)

phenomenal. animators seem to be the most likely people to pick up

these tools and go, okay, great, what can we do? And also as well,

what’s beyond the use of this tool? think that especially creatives in

general, but I specifically animators, are the ones who look at a

suite of tools and look at…

at what they can do and go, well, I’m now immediately disinterested in

just what they can do by themselves. I must figure out what they could

do if I combine that with that and I do this and then I put it through

this and then I want to know what’s just, they see, you guys seem to

always want to know what’s just beyond the horizon. What’s actually on

the horizon is not of particular interest.

Rob Minkoff (28:28)

Well, If you think about it, there was a caveman, hundreds of years

ago, thousands, sitting in the cave around the fire, and he said, hey,

I wonder if I could take that burnt piece of wood and then draw

something on the wall, right? And I’m sure that when he did it,

Orlando Wood (28:42)

Yeah.

Rob Minkoff (28:44)

everybody in the cave was like, what the, my God, that’s amazing. Look

what he just did. He just created this thing. And it’s kind of a magic

trick, right? Where you can create something from nothing. And in a

sense, the history of man has been about finding tools and then using

them to do things that were surprising and unexpected. And now with

AI, you know, we’ve created the most, we, as if I had something to do

with it, the most powerful tool in the history of

Orlando Wood (29:08)

Well, it’s definitely trained off your

work.

Rob Minkoff (29:10)

It’s

most powerful tool in the history of mankind has suddenly been

launched on the world. And so of course, it’s poised to change

absolutely everything.

Orlando Wood (29:20)

What does it look like for you when you look at this tool and you look

at what your next five years looks like? Is it I want to get to the

point where I’m releasing three films a year or I want to be in a

position where I’m able to pitch 10 films a year that I’m really

interested in because I still want to go through that system.What does it look like for you when you look at this tool and you look

at what your next five years looks like? Is it I want to get to the

point where I’m releasing three films a year or I want to be in a

position where I’m able to pitch 10 films a year that I’m really

interested in because I still want to go through that system.

Would you be looking to do things that you release yourself on an own

channel of yours?

Rob Minkoff (29:41)

Great question. For me, it really is about what I’m doing right now.

So I’m working on a couple of different projects that we’re intending

to use some AI tools to create.

And a lot of it is figuring out what can be done and what can be done

now. And in a world where things change so quickly, the tools that we

had a few months ago, suddenly, as you said, Google came out with VO

and you’re like, it was a VO3. it’s just like, it’s unbelievable. it’s

a little hard to predict, except that it’s obvious that

More and more will be able to be created using these tools again I’m

I’m not as interested in the in the paintbrush as I am in the painting

So I think right now Everyone wants to talk about the paintbrush right

and talk about AI and what it is and what it can do

But at the end of the day, it’s what you’re using the paintbrush for

and whether or not the painting has any kind of impact or not. And at

the end of the day, when someone looks at the painting, they’re not,

they did, nobody asked Leonardo what kind of a paintbrush did he use

or what paint, how did he formulate the paints? They just looked at

the painting and went, my God, that’s, it’s a masterpiece. It’s

beautiful. And it moved people and it, you know, that’s really what

it’s all about. So all of this talk about

Orlando Wood (30:48)

Right.

And like, does it matter

if Rembrandt used camera obscura or not? Like it sort of doesn’t. I

mean, the outcome is the outcome.

Rob Minkoff (31:04)

It doesn’t know it.

Well, and again, I mentioned that animation in particular, but all of

these mediums are essentially magic tricks, even live action is a

magic trick, right? You’re creating something that doesn’t exist.

You’re creating this illusion for the audience. And this illusion is

what is going to transfix the audience, right? So how one does a magic

trick in the classic school, a magician is never supposed to reveal

their tricks. Why?because it’s not about the mechanism that the magician uses, it’s

about the impact and the impression of the magic itself. But we’re in

an era right now where all anyone really wants to talk about is the

tool, and it’s because it hasn’t really been used yet successfully to

create something that the audience looks at and goes, I don’t care

what the tool is, right? So we’re sort of in this transitional

period where again you can see a shot done and you go wow look at that

shot and you’re like okay can you take that shot and you can you make

a short out of it and

Yes, you can and people are using it to do it, but it’s it’s sort of

developing. So it hasn’t really we’re not kind of there yet, but there

will come a point where nobody asks the question anymore. Nobody’s

going to say, well, did you use AI or not? Or like nobody’s going to

care. Be like, I don’t know. I like the story. Is it interesting? Was

it funny? Did I laugh? Was I moved? You know, and all those things are

have never changed throughout the history of mankind. Right. That’s

the most important thing is that you can connect with the

Orlando Wood (32:22)

Yeah. Yeah.

⁓ Yeah. Yeah.

Rob Minkoff (32:35)

and you can tell a compelling story.

Orlando Wood (32:36)

Well, it seems that that’s what Walt Disney was trying to do with Snow

White. He kind of said, you know, I want to make I’m not making a

cartoon here. I’m making a movie. I’m making something that’s

cinematic that that potentially could the people could feel for the

characters potentially could make someone cry. Caleigh and I had this

experience just a couple of days ago. We watched a movie called Where

the Robots Grow, which is an AI feature. And what? I we didn’t cry.

But I will tell you this, there was a moment where a character who’s

the equivalent of the robot dog in the film, and we were both, when

that dog was, let’s just say they stopped being in the movie, we were

both yelling at the screen. mean, we weren’t, we were like, well, he

could have done this, and he should have done that, and why didn’t he

do this? And if he just did that, the dog would still be around. And

it was…

You know, we weren’t picking apart the script. Well, that makes no

sense. They shouldn’t have done that because that’s just bad writing.

We didn’t do that. We were invested enough in the robot dog that we

were angry, upset and had to talk about it, had to have a bit of a go

at the television. And, you know, that is emotion. And it’s emotion

born out of the fact that we had a connection with that character.

that, you know, as you say, I think that’s the proof in the pudding.You know, we weren’t picking apart the script. Well, that makes no

sense. They shouldn’t have done that because that’s just bad writing.

We didn’t do that. We were invested enough in the robot dog that we

were angry, upset and had to talk about it, had to have a bit of a go

at the television. And, you know, that is emotion. And it’s emotion

born out of the fact that we had a connection with that character.

that, you know, as you say, I think that’s the proof in the pudding.

And sure, it’s not making anyone cry yet, but it is bringing up

emotions.

Rob Minkoff (33:55)

Well,

it’s again, it’s, and I guess I also caught a question like when you

say when it like, what is it? It doesn’t make anyone cry. At the end

of the day, these all of these things are tools to be used by human

beings. So at the end of the day, you sort of still have to say who is

the filmmaker? What did the filmmaker intend? This notion that AI does

things on its own is a bit of a misnomer, I think. And it’s course,

it’s titillating to people to think about a machine.

taking over and doing everything on its own, but currently that’s not

really the way things work. And frankly, I’m not really interested in

a world where the machines completely take over. like, I don’t know if

that’s a good, that doesn’t sound like a good thing to me, but can a

human being use these machines to some purposeful end, some humanistic

end? so again, it’s like how the tool is used, again, it’s the

artistry of the painter,

Orlando Wood (34:24)

Mm.

Yeah. Yeah.

Mmm.

Rob Minkoff (34:48)

artist,

how they use the tool is more important than the tool itself. The

tool, the paintbrush didn’t paint the painting. Although again, I know

that you can prompt anything, anybody with no experience, with no

education at all can say, you know, create a cute cat and it will. And

you’ll see, you’ll be like, wow, that’s very impressive that it can do

that. Now,

Orlando Wood (35:10)

Mmm.

Rob Minkoff (35:10)

So this layer, this level of quality has risen, right? Cause you go,

anybody can create something at this level. But at the end of the day,

the real artists are going to create something that is exceptional,

that is going to exceed people’s expectations. That’s going to live in

that very, the rarefied space of the cream rising to the top. And I

think that at the end of the day, the audience is really only going to

be interested in that. They’re only going to be interested in the best

of the best becauseSo this layer, this level of quality has risen, right? Cause you go,

anybody can create something at this level. But at the end of the day,

the real artists are going to create something that is exceptional,

that is going to exceed people’s expectations. That’s going to live in

that very, the rarefied space of the cream rising to the top. And I

think that at the end of the day, the audience is really only going to

be interested in that. They’re only going to be interested in the best

of the best because

Orlando Wood (35:29)

Yeah. Right.

Yeah.

Rob Minkoff (35:39)

Because the rest of it is going to become average. And they’re going

say, well, there’s a lot of average. Am I interested in that? I’m

like, no, not really. it’s going to be the… that I think… And

again, we haven’t seen that happen yet, but that will happen.

Orlando Wood (35:50)

Yeah.

And I think that that’s why the most important thing is that creators

who have experience, who are storytellers, get access and dive into

these tools as fast as possible. I think that that’s gonna be the

differentiator.

Rob Minkoff (36:03)

Absolutely. the fact that, you know, Hollywood has always been a very

closed system, right? It’s very difficult to get in. And there are lot

of people who’d love to participate who haven’t participated or

struggle to find their footing in the business. So again, these tools

are democratizing in that anybody can use them. So there can be

extremely talented people anywhere in the world that can use these

tools to make something that is great. So it’s exciting to think about

how that’s going to change.

the system.

Orlando Wood (36:30)

You’ve been judging at a lot of I mean, animation festivals and things

like that, but also most recently, a bunch of AI, focused festivals

What surprised you most or impressed you most about the work that

you’re seeing come out of that?

Rob Minkoff (36:44)

the progress of quality has surprised me the most because it’s

happened rapidly. So you see,

Orlando Wood (36:49)

in storytelling or of an

execution.Rob Minkoff (36:52)

again, storytelling is a kind of bar that we always use all the time.

And so that hasn’t changed. it’s not that, again, it’s rare that you

see a film that impresses you so much. You’re like, my God, I want to

know who the filmmaker was, right? Like, wow, that was incredible.

Orlando Wood (36:52)

both.

Mm.

Rob Minkoff (37:09)

But that’s really more about the filmmaker than it is about the tool.

I would say a lot of what I’ve seen currently would fall under the

heading of experimentation. Some things, again, some things look

incredibly good. You’re like, wow, that looks very impressive and it’s

indistinguishable from anything that I have seen in any other medium.

Meaning, you know, the illusion is very convincing. And then again…

I would say I haven’t seen something that broke through to me that

made me think, my God, that’s like the next Mickey Mouse or the next

whatever, like the next great IP. And that’s actually the harder thing

to do, right? The hardest thing to do is to create original IP. That’s

hard, that’s hard. And it’s always been hard. It’s never been easy.

It’s always been hard. And that’s the real special thing.

Orlando Wood (37:37)

Right. Yeah.

Rob Minkoff (37:52)

like when Harry Potter came around and there had been no Harry Potter

before that, but there had been Sword and Sorcery, there had been Lord

of the Rings, there had been a lot of different things. But when Harry

Potter came around, everybody’s like, my God, Harry Potter. And then

everybody’s obsessed with Harry Potter. ⁓ So that, I mean, that’s a

heat, obviously, that’s a very extreme example. But there was a world

before Harry Potter existed, right? And you’re saying, know, J.K.

Rowling,

Orlando Wood (38:03)

Mmm. Mmm. Mmm.

Yeah.

Mm. Yeah.

Rob Minkoff (38:18)

created this incredible IP. And that’s what’s exciting. It’s, am I, do

I care about how, whether it was, you know, made in live action or

animated or whatever, or it was the novel and I read the novel. You

say, that’s like, that’s, she showed us a new world. She showed us a

character in a world that was interesting and compelling. And again,

these are tools that will allow storytellers to tell stories in a way,

in a different way.created this incredible IP. And that’s what’s exciting. It’s, am I, do

I care about how, whether it was, you know, made in live action or

animated or whatever, or it was the novel and I read the novel. You

say, that’s like, that’s, she showed us a new world. She showed us a

character in a world that was interesting and compelling. And again,

these are tools that will allow storytellers to tell stories in a way,

in a different way.

Orlando Wood (38:20)

Yeah. Yeah.

I really tried to not be fearful. always say, you know, anytime you’re

fearful, start with curiosity and curiosity, most likely will lead to

inspiration and inspiration will, will deplete the fear. But I, I do

wonder, you know, one of the things that I have been fearful of is,

know, you spoke about IP just now. Obviously now Amazon now owns the

Bond franchise. I’ve been a,

lover of that franchise my whole life since the first time my dad sat

me down and I got to watch a grownup movie and it was Bond, you and

that was so exciting to me and I love it. And my fear, I suppose, is

that, you know, something that the Broccolis were very reserved in the

way they exploited that IP and they gave it to us very metered out.

I’m very, you know, concerned that a tech company that really just

wants eyeballs and attention is gonna go, we’re gonna have

you know, a Moneypenny TV show and a web series of, you know, of or,

you know, M’s office hours, you know, or something like that. I’m, you

know, is there something lost or something we, you know, we should be

fearful of when tech companies take control of creativity?

Rob Minkoff (39:48)

question. I do think that there is a tension in that, know, sort of

the tech side of things in the art side. Again, going back to the

beginnings of the business, it was called show business, right?

Because there was the show part and there was the business part.

When the when the business part drives the show part. Yes, I think you

can lose some inspiration and originality Again, you know, so it’s

there’s a tension there and you can’t have the show part without the

business part, right? So, you know, so it’s

But I think it’s an evolving thing. think that again, there’s

opportunity and the cream will rise. So if they do a good job with it,

it’ll work. If they don’t, the other things will sort of come in and

supplant it.

Orlando Wood (40:33)

I just wanted to ask, you know, obviously you went to Cal arts in

terms of, know, one of the things that people are fearful about AI is

the next generation’s path. You know, a lot of the things that are

being automated are the things that, that we, as people who have

worked in various creative industries,I just wanted to ask, you know, obviously you went to Cal arts in

terms of, know, one of the things that people are fearful about AI is

the next generation’s path. You know, a lot of the things that are

being automated are the things that, that we, as people who have

worked in various creative industries,

those are the things we cut our teeth on, my first job was printing

screenplays and swapping out the pink sheets and the blue sheets. that

was exhausting, annoying work, but it really gave me a respect for

redrafts of scripts. And I then understood something much deeper by

that.

the sort of Danielson wax on wax off work, you know, there’s a

learning in there somewhere. CalArts is obviously a technical school

where so many wonderful people like yourself have come through. I see

it as we’re gonna need to rely on schools like that a lot more.

There’s going to need to be a place where the repetition of those

tasks and the learning of the history in order to get that deeper

knowledge that is gonna come through with these tools.

What’s your feeling about the next generation of animators coming up

and what they’re potentially going to lack, what they’re going to

gain?

Rob Minkoff (41:39)

Yeah, I mean, I think that The education system is gonna have to

evolve, obviously, to deal with AI. Again, because AI is capable of

doing things that people typically have done. So I think that where

education ultimately has to evolve to is more in the realm of critical

thinking.

aesthetics so that people really learn from a young age how to judge

what they’re seeing and I think that that that that will become that

will remain a value throughout you know as things as things go because

that’s where that’s where

The real evolution happens in anything, in any art or any medium. It’s

in the realm of critical thinking. It’s in the realm of understanding

what it is you’re seeing. my hope, of course, is that the new

generation is really more focused on that than they are simply on how

to use. That’s, again, the tools that have been used for the last 25,

30 years are gonna change drastically.

because of AI and so those fluencies are gonna become less valuable.

So say, I know how to do this but I don’t need to do it that way

anymore, I can do it a different way. So what, again, what’s

underlying is more important than the, the why maybe is more important

than the how.

Orlando Wood (42:49)

Mm-hmm.

Right, right. That’s yeah, that’s a great point. So yeah, I just have

one question that, you we’ve been asking everyone. I had a boss named

Dan Wieden He, you know, Dan Wieden and Dave Kennedy wrote Just Do It.

Nike was their founding client at Wieden and Kennedy. They have

offices all over the world and that was one of my first jobs. I

started as an editor at Wieden and Kennedy and he had this great quote

where he said, you’re useless to me until you’ve failed big at least

twice.Right, right. That’s yeah, that’s a great point. So yeah, I just have

one question that, you we’ve been asking everyone. I had a boss named

Dan Wieden He, you know, Dan Wieden and Dave Kennedy wrote Just Do It.

Nike was their founding client at Wieden and Kennedy. They have

offices all over the world and that was one of my first jobs. I

started as an editor at Wieden and Kennedy and he had this great quote

where he said, you’re useless to me until you’ve failed big at least

twice.

And so we’ve been asking everybody, can you remember and would you be

willing to admit a time where you failed, whether big or small, what

you’ve failed at and what you learned from it?

Rob Minkoff (43:36)

there was gonna be a Roger Rabbit sequel, a feature sequel, and I was

working on that, developing it as the director, and…

It was quite a rocky road. was sort of a trial by far. It was before I

did Lion King. And ultimately, we developed, there were several

different versions developed and we developed one and everybody read

it and they were like, nah, nah, we’re gonna do it. And so it was a

devastating moment. I spent more than a year, I think, or at least a

year developing this project. And then from there, I went back to

directing a Roger Short. So was like,

Orlando Wood (43:56)

Right.

Rob Minkoff (44:08)

I had almost climbed up to the director’s chair and sort of. Yeah, it

was, was, but it was, it was interesting because at the end of that

process and actually Jeffrey was the one, Jeffrey Katzenberg was the

one that told me that things did not go well or that people read the

script and they didn’t love it. And so we’re like, so he said, my

advice to you is to call everybody.

Orlando Wood (44:11)

Yeah, was like rubbing your nose in it.

Rob Minkoff (44:29)

who you worked with and get their advice about what you did right and

wrong. Like, okay. So I got on the phone with everybody like, hi, I’m

just calling to tell me what I did wrong. And, but I would say almost

pretty much everybody that I spoke to was incredibly generous and very

supportive. And they said, Rob, this is so.

Orlando Wood (44:39)

Yeah

Yeah. Yeah.

Rob Minkoff (44:51)Normal in the business and they told me stories about well this

director had this failure and then they went on to direct some great

movie you’re like So don’t let it get you down. Just get back up on

the horse and try again. You’re like, okay Well, that’s you know,

that’s good. And by the way at the end of the day, that’s probably the

most important lesson that anyone Can learn in their life is how to

persevere through

difficulties, through failures, how to pick yourself up and dust

yourself off and start again. Because it does happen a lot and you

sort of have to be able to manage it and get past it.

Orlando Wood (45:15)

Yeah.

Yeah, did the act of calling do anything or was that just a kind

Rob Minkoff (45:28)

I don’t know. I mean, I think part of it is you sort of have to keep

your ego in check. You know, you sort of have to learn how to work

with people, humility. ⁓ So you sort of go through it. Yeah. So I

would say in the realm of kind of internal, emotional, psychosocial,

emotional stuff, in order to…

Orlando Wood (45:32)

Yeah, the humility of it. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Rob Minkoff (45:47)

to succeed in the business, right? Especially being a director, you

know, because you’re, the way I’ve always described to people is sort

of your captain of the ship while the ship is out at sea, but you

still have headquarters to deal with. You got the Admiral calling you

going, what did you do? You’re like, ⁓ you know, it’s like, you’re,

but you’re still responsible to get that ship through whatever it’s

got to get through and get home safely. And you’ve got a crew that you

have to take care of. And your job is to make those calls as the

captain of the ship. When you’re

Orlando Wood (45:58)

Right.

Yeah

Yeah. Yeah.

Rob Minkoff (46:14)

when it’s under your control, even though there might be a larger,

know, there’s others that you’re having to answer to. So it’s that,

that’s quite challenging. One of the things that I’ve always done, you

know, one of the terrible things that can happen on a movie project.when it’s under your control, even though there might be a larger,

know, there’s others that you’re having to answer to. So it’s that,

that’s quite challenging. One of the things that I’ve always done, you

know, one of the terrible things that can happen on a movie project.

And again, it does happen a lot, is that there’s a loss of confidence

in the director, right? And when that happens, it just destroys any

kind of sense of confidence among the crew and it can kind of become

like a snake pit.

Orlando Wood (46:41)

Yeah.

Rob Minkoff (46:43)

Just, you know, again, keeping everybody’s focus in the right place so

that you can get through what ultimately amounts to some kind of a war

with bombs going off and crazy shit happening. And you gotta keep

everybody focused on the objective and getting to where they’re

getting to in order to survive. And just learning how to do that is a

thing unto itself. Having nothing to do with telling a story, although

you do have to tell stories all the time as a director just to get

through the day, right? Because at the end of the day,

Orlando Wood (46:52)

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Hmm. Yeah.

Rob Minkoff (47:12)

people sort of who don’t understand it or haven’t had any direct

experience to like what exactly what is it you do and it’s literally

you’re telling a story you know you have a story to tell and then you

got to work with a lot of people and what are you doing you’re telling

them the story and explaining it to them and then they go that’s what

I’m doing because they don’t know what the story is necessarily so you

explain it to them and then suddenly they are they’re helping you tell

that story so storytelling actually again is probably the most

important thing that anybody can learn in their life

Orlando Wood (47:18)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Right, it’s that Yuval Harari thing, isn’t it? Where it’s, you know,

get everybody going in the same direction and you need to constantly

be giving them those little storytelling tidbits to keep pointing them

towards the right point on the horizon. Yeah. Yeah.Right, it’s that Yuval Harari thing, isn’t it? Where it’s, you know,

get everybody going in the same direction and you need to constantly

be giving them those little storytelling tidbits to keep pointing them

towards the right point on the horizon. Yeah. Yeah.

Rob Minkoff (47:49)

Yeah. Because the truth is they don’t know where you’re going.

It’s like you’re getting there to some extent with either maybe the

map is just in your head and nobody can see it objectively and know.

So you’re constantly having to explain to people what it is you’re

doing and why you’re doing it and how you’re going to get there. And

that’s, again, is such an incredibly important part of the process.

Orlando Wood (48:13)

Well, Rob, that’s fantastic. Thank you so much for, for, you know,

giving us your time and, and this has been really fun. there was so

much I wanted to cover, so I only really get to fully enjoy it like

the last five to 10 minutes, cause I’ve gotten all my questions

answered. So, but I really, mean, that was just so fun and, and it was

just so generous of you to, to, come on and to give us your time.

Rob Minkoff (48:34)

Absolutely happy to do it. Thank you All right

Orlando Wood (48:36)

Thank you so much.