Creativity in the Age of AI with Dani Van De Sande

Orlando Wood (00:00)
And just so I've got this, Danny Van De Sande. Okay, okay. ⁓ yeah, yeah, yeah, people are all over the shop with your name.

Dani Van De Sande (00:03)
Yeah, there's many pronunciations. like, I don't even know what it is anymore. Oh

Orlando Wood (00:13)
I actually, at

Dani Van De Sande (00:13)
my God.

Orlando Wood (00:14)
the AI, ⁓ at the Artist in the Machine event in LA, I actually was with one person who just trailed off and just went, Danny Venders. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and I was like, that's all right, we're all a little bit confused, but you know what, pick one and go with it.

Dani Van De Sande (00:24)
No, you're kidding. You're joking. You're joking.

I can't that's too good. I just gave up. I love it. ⁓ my god I don't think I'll ever give away my love give up my last name. I have to my god

Orlando Wood (00:34)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

No, I think that's wise. ⁓

Okay, great. Well, listen,

so Danny Vanessan, thank you so much for being on this. I'm so excited because you are the founder and CEO of what I think is the best event for where creativity and technology meet, Artist in the Machine. I want to say a lot of things about the event and how what a great job I think you've done. But I'd like to start by first thanking you for being on the podcast. But second, just ask you about Artist in the Machine and what you think makes it so special.

Dani Van De Sande (01:12)
Thank you, thank you so much for having me and it was incredible having you there and can't think of someone who should be in the room as much as you should. ⁓ What makes me think it's so special, that was the question? Yeah, it's very interesting. The concept came to me very organically and it was really just driven by this gut feeling that I needed to get.

Orlando Wood (01:16)
pleasure.

Yeah.

Dani Van De Sande (01:40)
artists and creatives together ⁓ with technologists in a room to really look at this paradigm shift that we're seeing with AI through this creative first lens. And I think this energy, in a nutshell, this energy of having artists who are unafraid to be bold, to really experiment with the latest tools, no matter how controversial that might be, with

the engineers and the researchers and the cross-disciplinary players, like brand leaders and ⁓ entertainment studio executives, all of these different disciplines in one room really paving the future of where creativity and technology meet, I think is what makes the room so special.

Orlando Wood (02:24)
Yeah.

To be honest,

in that case, you nailed it, because that was going to be almost verbatim what I think about the event, is so many of these events devolve into prognosticating futurism, where people are like, well, in five years, this is what you're going to see. And everybody's very confident when we've seen so much change just in the last, mean, in every six month period with this tech, the changes are so monumental. I defy anyone.

Dani Van De Sande (02:39)
Hmm.

Yeah.

Orlando Wood (02:55)
who's not, you know, a leader of one of the big tech companies or the AI owners that has a sense of where this is going. ⁓ And I, you know, so I love that A, it stays away from that and B, ⁓ it's practical understanding from both creatives and creative organizations. I think that is very rare as well. ⁓ You know, a lot of these just become a sort of a mess of, you know, fear meets confidence

Dani Van De Sande (03:00)
Yeah.

Mm.

Orlando Wood (03:25)
storytelling and futurism, you know, ⁓ but I think it's really nailed that and I really enjoy it for that perspective.

Dani Van De Sande (03:26)
Hmm. Hmm. Yeah.

Thank you, no, so appreciate that. And I think one way that we try to do this is just putting the artists on stage and letting them show us the crazy things they've built in their basement in the past month. It's like, let's stop talking about it. Let's start showing what is really happening because every day in this industry, crazy things are unlocked and the opportunity

Orlando Wood (03:48)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Dani Van De Sande (04:01)
to gather in real life, you know, cause we're all kind of going through this crazy journey on our own to some extent behind our screens, to really gather in real life and play and explore this is so important now, I think.

Orlando Wood (04:16)
Yeah.

Yeah, because I think that like the balance of what you had there as well is you had people like, you know, the representative from Adobe talking about how they train and how safely they train and what Firefly is doing and how it's going to be integrated into their programs. ⁓ And that's incredibly useful for creative organizations. But then you had somebody like Grimes who I have to admit, I didn't really know a lot about prior to her being there, but I was really impressed, A, by your choice of bringing her on and B,

by the thoughtfulness that she comes at ⁓ as an artist to these tools. ⁓ And just to give a tiny bit of background on that, she had a web series or a series of episodes where she was making music videos and she was building using these tools in real time. And what I found fascinating was...

Dani Van De Sande (04:55)
Yeah.

Orlando Wood (05:09)
as an artist there were times where she'd look at something and go great that's great we've used all these background extras that are digital or whatever else and then she came in the next morning went I don't know how I feel about that like I you know I was noodling it over overnight and I am an artist and I do pay for my music videos and I pay the talent I just took a job away from someone and I don't like it because they're an artist too and that

Dani Van De Sande (05:22)
Hmm.

Hmm. Hmm.

Orlando Wood (05:36)
willingness

to be wrong, that willingness to wrestle with the problem in real time, and as well she's so unbelievably articulate. ⁓

Dani Van De Sande (05:46)
Yeah.

Orlando Wood (05:46)
I just

thought that was, you know, having a balance of those two things, know, businesses that are undeniably changing the game and looking forward. And then an artist laying herself bare and saying very clearly where she's drawing the line in real time. Because she's basically going to bed, going the lines here and then waking up in the morning going, no, I think the line's actually further back here.

Dani Van De Sande (06:00)
Yeah.

Yeah, it's like, no,

no, it couldn't be more true. And I think also having those, like allowing for that friction to exist, right? Because we are going through a paradigm shift and we're trying to establish the boundaries with the technology and with our human agency and her ability to be so raw.

and vulnerable in her journey is like, I think it really speaks to people because we're all going through that. And I can't speak for artists. Like I'm not, you I have my own creative outlets. But as an artist, I can only imagine, right, but for everybody, what we're going through of like, this is really exciting, but shit, this is really scary. It's like this roller coaster. So we just need more of that.

Orlando Wood (06:35)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Dani Van De Sande (06:56)
in person, raw, vulnerable, know, we're all in it together kind of conversation. She's awesome.

Orlando Wood (07:01)
Yeah. Yeah, think in...

Yeah, she was very surprising. I I only really knew her as the archetype of what she was and had very little understanding of her. And I've really been... I was very impressed by the event. It's funny because I think that, you know, I'm sure you encounter this.

Dani Van De Sande (07:12)
Right.

Orlando Wood (07:22)
tech companies have to have a mission and go at it, you know with blinders on and as well. So many of us who have started companies you with artists in the machine me with Kubrick and Kubrick labs. We're having to project so much confidence all the time because there is a lack of assurance and we're very open and honest about what we don't know or what's emerging but I think that.

Dani Van De Sande (07:44)
Yeah.

Orlando Wood (07:47)
Watching someone be vulnerable and be open about what they are wrestling with and actually where they're not confident, I was actually, that's the confidence I'm most interested in. You I don't know if you feel that way, but the confidence of saying, don't know, and I'm figuring it out, you know, but come along with me for the journey.

Dani Van De Sande (08:03)
Yes, absolutely.

Absolutely, no, think, because no one really knows to your earlier point, right? When I, yeah, when I, you we've been waiting for certain things to happen. We don't know are there gonna be X amount of robots in the next year or five years, 10 years? Is, you know, the headset ever gonna hit? what's actually gonna happen? We don't know. And so I think it... ⁓

Orlando Wood (08:14)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Is Google Glass

finally going to work? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Dani Van De Sande (08:33)
Yeah, I was like, shit, world models are out, are all my friends who were waiting for Vision Pro and then little happened, now they're like, now is our moment, you know? But ⁓

I think it really comes back to this idea of we, a, this gets really into it, but we are going through a transformation as humans. Like we are cyborgs, right? We are one with our machines now and that's.

Orlando Wood (08:54)
Yeah.

Dani Van De Sande (09:00)
rapidly, exponentially increasing, and it's changing who we are and what it means to be human. And so if anyone, know, that is so real, like everyone is dealing with that right now. ⁓ And so we need to have those conversations and be real about it. We try to encourage also as much as we can as we build trust in the ecosystem on stage and on our stages. ⁓

Orlando Wood (09:17)
Yeah.

Dani Van De Sande (09:25)
We want also the big enterprises to be vulnerable, wherever we can. Of course, there's PR teams and things. But we try to create an environment where ⁓ we can have these conversations freely.

Orlando Wood (09:29)
Yeah.

Right, yeah.

Yeah, it's

definitely the most human first event that I've seen and it's and and the you know, it seems Do you do you do that on purpose? Do you do you? Plan for that vulnerability or is that just a byproduct of making sure you have enough creatives on stage and creatives talking and then actually Emotion just naturally becomes a byproduct of that, you know

Dani Van De Sande (10:02)
Yeah, I

think it's a number of things. ⁓ We have a no asshole policy in our events and there's just this sort of community feel. It's a more intimate event. Everyone there has been, has generally knows some of it. It's pretty well curated. ⁓

Orlando Wood (10:10)
Good.

Dani Van De Sande (10:23)
and there's sort of a level of trust because of that, but I think there's like a self-selection in that too, because anyone who's bold enough to be doing this stuff and open enough to explore it... ⁓

Orlando Wood (10:33)
Yeah.

Dani Van De Sande (10:36)
you know, there is this feeling of like we're kind of helping to create this new paradigm shift and we're seeing these things unfold and we're contributing to them unfolding. So sort of this like kinship in the room. Like the person at the major studio that's responsible for introducing innovation into the organization is a fascinating, in my opinion, it's like you gotta be a little out there, right? So we're all a little out there and a little crazy and so there's this kinship, you know?

Orlando Wood (10:45)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, I mean, I first became aware of you at the Warner Brothers Accelerator because it seemed like you had a great grasp of how tech is actually being used inside big creative organizations, which is different than just creativity at large. You know, if you talk about an artist or you talk about a creator, they're engaging with this technology in one way. And then you have creative businesses that I always describe them as it's like building a house on a foundation of quicksand. You know that if your job is to reliably make money from a piece of creativity,

Dani Van De Sande (11:29)
Yeah.

Orlando Wood (11:34)
whether it be a book or a piece of media or whatever else, that's an incredibly dangerous and I think admirable thing to do. But you seem to have a very good grasp of how these sorts of creative tools and creatives can work within those organizations. Is that from your background and your background is from venture and you worked at Snap? Did you gain it there or did you develop it over the course of, you know, the time you've been, you've founded Artists in the Machine?

Dani Van De Sande (12:03)
Yeah, it's a great question. ran, I had an innovation agency. This kind of led me to starting Artists in the Machine because I've, you know, I've always been someone who, I try to build bridges and I think that's so important right now, right? Like the part of what inspired the beginning of Artists in Machine was I felt that a lot of the conversation was very fear oriented. It was very much about the technology. The narrative at the time, early 2023 was, ⁓

Open AI is going to take everyone's jobs, like it's doomsday, the human race is going to shit because of AI. But when you start to get all these different folks in a room, right, and you are able to have a conversation with the head of innovation at Shiseido and ex-artists, people, and the founder of 11 Labs, for example. ⁓

Orlando Wood (12:34)
Yeah.

Dani Van De Sande (12:58)
you really start to understand how important the whole ecosystem is, right? It's important to put artists in the room with...

Orlando Wood (13:02)
Yeah.

Dani Van De Sande (13:06)
those who are driving the strategy, the licensing deals around these things. And I think I've just been naturally like a bridge builder in that regard. And I had an innovation agency where I was working closely with a number of these heads of innovation at big brands, helping them leverage emerging technology and play with emerging technology to engage consumers in different ways, to introduce more creativity into their organization. it was through that, ⁓ I would say.

Orlando Wood (13:34)
Yeah.

Well, that's great. mean, listen, think it's, you know, it's I think that on some level, creativity is going through a mass of upheaval, especially industrial creativity, you know, but.

At the same time, I think it's safe a little bit. new thing, the moment a new thing comes out that solves every creative problem, creative people are going to look at that and go, but what if? And that's the whole creative act is looking beyond the horizon and trying to do something new. And it's that alchemy that I think. ⁓

Dani Van De Sande (14:02)
Right.

Orlando Wood (14:10)
I think will sort of be safe. mean, I think that, you know, if you own a widget factory or you have something that is very repeatable, I worry about your job or your business or your industry, the creative industries.

Think you know are gonna be sort of fine You know, there's there's never been more people creating more media on the planet out of their houses than there is today And and that was the same thing will be true tomorrow. We'll just keep creating more and more ⁓ Do you feel I mean among the community do you still fear that feel the same fear I imagine Because you've created this wonderful environment. You have an event, know multiple events in New York and LA

You've got these, you you're sort of bi-coastal and you've created around you this group of people who seem to be very willing to work with change. Is that insulating you from some of the fear or are you still seeing the same degrees of fear amongst, you know, the people you're engaging with?

Dani Van De Sande (15:12)
Yeah, it's I think we all go through the yin and yang even being in the end, you know, it's it's being in the industry It's one day. I'm like this is the this is gonna be incredible for humans, right? This is gonna be and then and then there's like the dark side of it, which is the reality is that like entire structures are going to be overhauled and economics and you know new opportunities are gonna emerge and and

Orlando Wood (15:24)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Dani Van De Sande (15:38)
ones that exist now will go away and with that people are going to lose jobs and things are going to get restructured and we don't know what the future looks like. Like no one can say what's going to happen and you know and we've had a lot of conversations also around like just the mob you know what anyway I won't go there but AGI and like the alien intelligence within the models and there's this whole other thread so we don't really know what's going to happen but I think

Orlando Wood (15:57)
Right.

Dani Van De Sande (16:06)
the spirit that we're trying to capture and spread is at least today with what's available to you and what ⁓ yeah with your kind of immediate needs and opportunities like what how can you use these tools to empower yourself

and feel and use it to really advance yourself. ⁓ And if that's about unlocking greater creativity or making certain things more efficient so that you can spend more time on that, that is all we can really speak for and do right now. And I think that's the spirit of like, we're all in this together. We don't know where the hell this is going. But let's be inspired around this. Let's come towards this ⁓ from an empowered and inspired place.

Orlando Wood (16:46)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Dani Van De Sande (16:56)
But it's very important, like we're an echo chamber to some extent, like my community is an echo chamber, the people, right? It's important to understand what's going on. when artists are still afraid to talk about what tools they're using, like this is still, you know, there's a lot of negativity around this and people are afraid, rightfully so. So yeah, we're a bubble. And I think the more we can introduce diversity,

Orlando Wood (17:15)
Yeah. Yeah.

Dani Van De Sande (17:21)
We're in echo chambers, sorry, but the more we can introduce this diversity of thought, opinion, perspective in the mix, I think the better.

Orlando Wood (17:30)
Do you think that there's a difference between LA and New York? mean, you've had a, ⁓ you you've developed really great communities in both places. Do you see, is there a difference in the conversation in that echo chamber between the two places?

Dani Van De Sande (17:45)
Yeah, I mean, definitely as one might expect, LA being so media entertainment focused. I think what we saw is this past year, there was a lot of conversation and development and technology developed around the visual as, know, video, new video models, now world models being developed, right? A lot around kind of the visual medium and being.

in LA in November of 2025, when all these crazy things are happening, right?

announcements are being made, Disney working with OpenAI, the Academy of Motion Pictures starting to acknowledge that AI is part of some of the awards. There's a lot happening and to be in the kind of original bed of media entertainment and creativity and to have those conversations is extremely timely. So in LA, naturally, there's a lot, mean, media and entertainment, right? It's like the entire film industry. But music, I would say, we're in Grammy week right now.

Orlando Wood (18:23)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Dani Van De Sande (18:49)
There's a lot happening now with regards to music and we're seeing that start to really pick up. So I think this year, if you think about LA, music will be a huge, there'll be a lot happening. So a lot of announces just happened at the Nvidia, UMG. So in LA, really rooted in media entertainment and then in New York, there's still that, but there's the broadcasters.

old media companies, there's, and then there's the brand, know, Fashion Beauty, Luxury, Madison Avenue, you know, AdAgency. So there's a little bit more of that, I would say, whereas LA naturally skews. No, no, no, no. So, yeah.

Orlando Wood (19:22)
Yeah.

Yeah, New York's not a one industry town the way LA is. ⁓

Yeah, that's interesting. It's funny because I feel like...

Weirdly that you've got this kind of top-and-tail thing happening where I see a lot of entertainment companies in LA I mean one client who I won't mention ⁓ We've been bidding a job with them to build a system for them ⁓ for about two and a half years And you know, it's just you know, we're getting we're always getting closer to sign off But weirdly they're doing quite well as a media company

Dani Van De Sande (19:59)
My God.

Orlando Wood (20:08)
They are you know, they're not and and as well then what happens is a little bit of time passes and it gets a little bit cheaper or a model improves and they go actually this thing that we were gonna sign off, know two years ago and the thing I say to them well, yes, but you've lost two years of experience playing with it and understanding it because weirdly the the old broadcasters like in New York and the the creators They're jumping on this stuff and they're becoming so experienced in how to use it in their

Dani Van De Sande (20:17)
Right.

Hmm.

Right.

Orlando Wood (20:38)
workflows and the broadcasters

Dani Van De Sande (20:39)
Right.

Orlando Wood (20:40)
are doing it just because they really are on their knees and it's sort of the media companies that are doing quite well but not as well as five years ago that are doing this stop-start approach avoidance thing. ⁓

Dani Van De Sande (20:44)
Right.

Right.

Orlando Wood (20:54)
That wasn't really a question. But that's sort of what I'm seeing is that the people who are desperate are using it and the people who are excited are using it. And then there's this huge group in between who are like, we don't know. I mean, should we, should we not? don't know. Is that similar to what you're seeing?

Dani Van De Sande (20:56)
No, it's a...

Yeah. Right.

Yes, and I think it's important to roll up your sleeves, even if you don't consider yourself a builder, a creative, an engineer. some, it's, playing around with cloud code this past week, as many people are now, like setting, creating an agent, you don't have to be an engineer, but it is a whole other way of thinking. Like you need to, there's a lot of like.

Orlando Wood (21:23)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Dani Van De Sande (21:36)
process involved in that. There's a lot of, there's a way you need to communicate, you need to train it. ⁓ So it is a paradigm shift in a whole other model and framework in which to work and structure things. And to your point, it's not about using this specific model or this specific tool wrapper. Like it's a whole new paradigm shift and way of thinking and interacting with technology. So.

Orlando Wood (22:03)
Yeah.

Dani Van De Sande (22:04)
Yeah, absolutely. It's like the sooner you can roll up your sleeves and you can get become an expert real fast. ⁓ But you got to start playing because otherwise you will be left behind, I believe.

Orlando Wood (22:11)
Yeah, yeah, 100%.

Yeah, I mean

that's what I tell everybody like have a if you're wondering how to get in have a play figure out something you want to do and just muck around because you know, You're going to learn the most out of that ⁓ So just getting into the actual event itself and how you go about it don't want to ask you to give up your special sauce, but you've undeniably created an incredibly great ⁓ Community around, know the things that you're tackling How do you like?

Dani Van De Sande (22:26)
Yeah.

Orlando Wood (22:43)
Take me through your sort of how you put the event together. You know, like what's your speaker selection rubric? How do you make sure that you're balancing the needs of creators versus the needs of organizations? How do you, with an event as varied editorially as what you put together, how do you go in? What do you start with? You know, what's your process for putting an event together that works as well as Artists in the Machine?

Dani Van De Sande (23:09)
Yeah, no thank you. Yeah, I would say at a high level, there's, because the industry changes so fast, it's almost a full-time job just to keep up with everything that's happening. ⁓ We kind of go through this process where about three to four months.

before the event, so right now we're just in that sweet spot. We're three and a half months before New York, can't believe it. We kind of, we become this like, we're like, all right, tell us everything, right? We're talking to everyone, we're just like, all right, we're immersing ourselves, what the hell is going on right now? It's New York.

May 2026, what's going on, right? Like what's shifting? ⁓ And looking at that from a few different levels, we're gonna release a bit of our programming framework for this next season, shortly in the next week or so. But some of the things we're looking at are the tectonic shifts driven by the big industry players, the also like more of the bottoms up shifts. So what are the artists doing? What are the builders doing? What models are they resonating with? What new tools are out there? What are the unlocks? ⁓

Orlando Wood (23:43)
Yeah.

Dani Van De Sande (24:11)
What are some of the, like last year I like we're talking a lot about LLMs, now we're looking towards world models and spatial intelligence. So we're kind of just like ingesting, totally, like we're gonna have a robotics component as well. So we're ingesting all this information and then we're trying our best to distill for our audience, what do they need to see to walk away from this day, you know, with some concrete, tangible takeaways they can bring into their practice, their work.

Orlando Wood (24:18)
that feed into robotics and things like that. Yeah. Wow. Cool.

Dani Van De Sande (24:40)
⁓ And with the inspiration, where something is clicked for them, ⁓ shit, I didn't know that was possible, now it is. Right, now I can think about things and see things differently. yeah, it's kind of, it's a bit of madness, but ⁓ we try to take, ingest everything and then kind of distill it into the very timely things that are happening in that moment in that city, in that ecosystem.

Orlando Wood (24:55)
Yeah.

Yeah, because

We had Kara Cusumano on who's the festival director of Tribeca Film Festival and she explained the months leading in like a detective looking at one of those conspiracy boards with the red twine going to different things and looking at it from different, you know, and looking and feeling a bit nuts. I imagine it's kind of the same thing for you. mean, especially because everything's changing up until, you know, there can be announcements that OpenAI has launched some new thing or Gemini's come out with like

Dani Van De Sande (25:12)
Mm.

my god. Yeah.

It's nuts. Nuts.

Totally.

Orlando Wood (25:38)
day of the event that, you know, changes the paradigm potentially.

Dani Van De Sande (25:42)
Totally. You know, one way is

always like, I'm always keeping tabs on, okay, who is always doing the most interesting, unlocking the new format, like first to try the new tool, like who are those people? And then I'm basically, I'm trying to track them and I know they're gonna be doing something interesting. Because you can't control a lot of the things that are happening, you know, flying by the seat of our pants here.

Orlando Wood (25:56)
Yeah. Right. Right.

Yeah. I mean, how do you is there an editorial choice that you make amongst because the the the last event the L.A. ⁓ Summit there were so many different stages and areas and breakout workshops and things like that. How do you

How do you decide editorially, what is, is the, does the main stage have one continuous thrust or are you trying to have the main stage tackle as many different things as possible? That's for people who want to generally understand. then other stages have specific editorial points of view. Like how do you, how do you program what goes where within, you know, an event like that?

Dani Van De Sande (26:51)
Yeah, the main stage is really about inspiration, ⁓ walking away inspired and also kind of ⁓ the big announcements.

It's about that, right? It's about inspiration, big announcements, big moments. ⁓ Whereas the machine stage, which will be, it's more of this kind of hands-on workshops, roll up your sleeves and build things. And I think that caters to two interests. So it's like, are you someone who really learns best by just listening and ingesting a bunch of information? ⁓

Orlando Wood (27:06)
Yeah. Yeah.

Dani Van De Sande (27:29)
seeing what other people are doing or do you actually want to like get into the nitty-gritty and build something? So we try to cater around that and there's a lot of other threads within that and we're still developing a lot of that framework and I get some of it I also can't share yet. ⁓ But yeah there's there's there's ⁓

Orlando Wood (27:39)
Mm-hmm.

Sure.

Dani Van De Sande (27:49)
there's kind of a purpose to each stage, one being more about the hands-on experience and one being more about the inspiration and thought leadership and big announcements. And then, yeah, there's key areas and kind of, there's an overall thesis in which we go into each summit of like, here's where the action's happening, here's where we're gonna focus, because this is what matters today in AI, right, and creativity. So.

Orlando Wood (27:59)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

You kind of very often, you know, I've heard you talk about

how creatives and technologists, one of the biggest problems that we face right now is that creatives and technologists are still kind of talking past each other quite a lot. And there's still a disconnect there and that each one of them needs to be learning from each other a lot more. was funny, I spoke to Sergio Lopez, who's the CEO of Omnicom Production and he was like, yeah, like we could make a full AI ad now. The question is when the Wright brothers flew for the first time, that was the first time

Dani Van De Sande (28:46)
Yeah.

Orlando Wood (28:52)
pilot had ever been needed or learned anything. know, so there's, there's a degree to which, you know, the technology is there and, and all right, very early on, sometimes only the technologists know how to do it well. ⁓ you know, so how do you create an environment where the technologists and the creatives can be learning from each other and bridging the gaps towards each other more?

Dani Van De Sande (28:54)
Right.

Right.

Right.

Yeah, I think we're seeing the merging of those, right? So it's like, think the creative technologist is such an incredible. ⁓

role to sit in and to define yourself in in this shift because everything is merging with technology and if you can maximize your creativity and have the discipline and the at least a little bit of excitement around getting you know building things and interacting with the technology and not being afraid of it.

Orlando Wood (29:45)
Yeah.

Dani Van De Sande (29:48)
I think you're in a prime position. And so a lot of it is also just kind of closing that gap. And we see that with a lot of tools that help with vibe coding. One of the big highlights of our summit was one of our partners, Lovable, they really wanted to play in our ecosystem by seeing what artists would unlock by vibe coding. Because everyone thinks about founders or more of an engineering type vibe coding. It's actually, ⁓ what do artists

Orlando Wood (30:11)
Yeah.

Dani Van De Sande (30:18)
do with that and how do we demystify building something for some of these multidisciplinary artists who aren't you know as native and digital native and empower them to build something they couldn't build before. So I think it's about closing that gap and we're going to see that gap close more and more and I think it's a this plays back into how can we inspire and empower people rather than make them feel alienated but from it from and by the technology but rather feel like it's their friend. ⁓

Orlando Wood (30:31)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Dani Van De Sande (30:47)
and that it's not that hard, like anyone can do this. So.

Orlando Wood (30:50)
Yeah. Yeah. It's

funny because my experience of it is I've seen a lot of technologists, every time there's a new release of anything, they get really excited. And every time there's a new release, creatives tend to tense up or pull back. ⁓ And that it's the harder thing is getting creatives to bridge the gap than it is technologists. They're usually very excited to become more creative. Whereas the creatives...

Dani Van De Sande (31:08)
Right. Right.

Right.

Orlando Wood (31:18)
like their pencils or their typewriter or their you know, it is that makes them feel the most good when they're creating. They don't want to disrupt that because you know, ⁓

inspiration management or emotional management that can lead to inspiration is such a huge part of the creative process, you know? There's an old Calvin and Hobbes cartoon where Hobbes is asking Calvin, oh, when are you going to do this thing? He's like, well, I'm just waiting for the inspiration to strike. And Hobbes goes, oh, yeah, what kind of inspiration? And Calvin goes, last minute panic? And that to me seems like, you so

Dani Van De Sande (31:36)
Yeah.

You

Yeah

my god.

Orlando Wood (32:00)
much of the creative process all kind of whittled down to one thing. ⁓ But yeah, you've created an environment that the creatives seem to be so comfortable in. most of these events I see a lot of business people and a lot of technologists. I don't see a lot of creatives, but you've really managed to bridge that gap. How do you think that you talk to creatives differently about this than others who do what you do or trying to create the community?

Dani Van De Sande (32:01)
Right, God, totally, yeah.

Hmm.

Orlando Wood (32:30)
you're trying to create but are just you know that they're they're failing because they're not able to attract the creatives in the same way you are.

Dani Van De Sande (32:38)
Yeah, I think it's just putting the most bold and well-respected artists and creatives on stage. That's it. And...

Orlando Wood (32:39)
.

Mm. Mm, yeah. Yeah.

Dani Van De Sande (32:46)
respecting that and putting putting people on stage who are not just talking the talk but walking the walk because I think there's a lot of like talking heads, know and you go to these big conferences and it's ex-executive and it's and we we still have those folks on our stage like that's really important. It's really important to understand what these big companies like a Mattel, you know are doing in this space and their point of view on it because they're going to drive tectonic shift but they should be on stage with the artists and with the bottoms-up creatives

Orlando Wood (32:54)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Dani Van De Sande (33:16)
who are who are really the most bold in chartering unchartered unchartered territory venturing into unchartered territory. So I think that's a lot of it and I think to your earlier point it's also like I think we kind of psych ourselves out a lot like ⁓ AI what is it what is this thing I can't touch you know it but it's just it's another tool it's a you know like what is this solving for me today?

Orlando Wood (33:20)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Dani Van De Sande (33:45)
Right? you know, that's what it is right now. ⁓ It's what is it solving for me today? It's another tool. It's not this crazy, you know, I think we conceptualize a lot. psych ourselves out. It's like, it's a lot of things. Like AI is in a lot of places, right? It's like, it's not just this nebulous like thing. So.

Orlando Wood (33:45)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah,

you spoke earlier about how, you know, everybody originally was very scared of open AI because it was coming for every business and, and, actually that was its mission statement. It was like, we want to be able to do anything a human can do, which is another way of saying we're coming for your job. We're coming for your life. We're coming for your everything, you know? and, know, so, so there's kind of that, ⁓

Dani Van De Sande (34:21)
Yeah.

Right, right, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Orlando Wood (34:35)
perspective is that, you know, that it was, it was avowedly coming for everything. But I think.

that creatives naturally, ⁓ it seems to me in some of the demos that I've seen on your stages, that each creative workflow is so different. There are so many tools that I'm not looking at one single solution that answers everything. And I guess you've talked a lot about the power dynamics of, you okay, we're all creating down here, but really we're all just feeding into, you know, these big umbrella tech companies.

Dani Van De Sande (35:00)
Right.

Orlando Wood (35:12)
You know and and the illusion of choice we have between them But like, you know Google and entropic and open AI and whatever else eventually they're gonna be all offering AWS are all gonna be offering very much the same things What do you think? I mean are we? Is it gonna become You know a singular solution for everything is there gonna be a garage band moment or a you know or

Dani Van De Sande (35:13)
Yeah.

Orlando Wood (35:39)
Or do creatives naturally have a resistance to that? Do they have an inbuilt defense against that? Because they're creative, they're going to do things differently and they're always going to want something so specific that there is always going to be a application layer that inspires a lot of different ways of doing things and different styles of work.

Dani Van De Sande (36:01)
Yeah, I definitely think like niche solutions, right? You could say, well, why does something like, why does lovable, I mean, to bring it up again, but there's so much traction there. Like lovable exists when you have notebook LM or cod code. Like these are all similar tools, but like they each cater to their own niche that resonates with that. Like the aesthetic and the design of an experience in lovable is gonna resonate with someone in a way that cod code won't. So I think we're gonna see lots of... ⁓

Orlando Wood (36:19)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Dani Van De Sande (36:29)
Yeah, just lots of variations of this, but I do believe, and again, we have no idea what's gonna happen, but I do think a lot of these companies are gonna get acquired and swiped up and fold into bigger tech companies, and I think a lot of the small studios are gonna get acquired by big studios, and I think we're gonna see a lot of consolidation, but I think there's so much opportunity and room for niche. ⁓

Orlando Wood (36:40)
Yeah.

Dani Van De Sande (36:54)
market products and because also you don't have to raise money anymore to build these things, you're gonna have X amazing animator building a tool, right, that's happening already, you know, building a tool for their own crew and community, you know?

Orlando Wood (37:03)
Yeah.

100%.

Yeah. Yeah, I've kind of been noodling on this theme that actually, you know.

UI and UX has become the the new most important thing because if everybody's plugging into the same API's on the backend, your subject matter expertise being able to show that you can create a really sticky thing for whatever industry you're trying to make it for and that people who have that subject matter expertise go, yes, this is the thing I've always been wanting. Yeah. Sorry, were you gonna say something?

Dani Van De Sande (37:23)
Right.

Right, speaking to me. Yes, yes, yes, yes.

No, and I think

to that point, it's like them being part of creating that. know, like I think, for example, like Flora, that's an incredible tool that they're really creating that with the artist designer in mind. They're building it with them. And so, you know, yeah, I think, yeah, totally. It speaks to these different audiences and niches.

Orlando Wood (37:45)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, where do you, mean, are people still bringing you their fears, whether it's companies ⁓ like, let's say, a Mattel or companies that have been making creative work for a really long time and creators, mean, are they still coming to you with a fair amount of fear in their heart?

Dani Van De Sande (38:23)
That was everyone's fate, think. But yeah, no, it's an interesting question. I mean, it's the ups and downs, right? And it's the Grimes talk, think, encapsulates that so well. It's like, she's so psyched and she's always the first, but she's...

Orlando Wood (38:25)
Yeah

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Dani Van De Sande (38:40)
up at night thinking about the implications of this and what her role is in it, you know, and where she should draw the line. And so I think we're all going through this and also it's just a lot to keep up with. Like I can't even imagine being an independent, like being an independent artist or creator today and all the things you have to juggle, right? Like social media presence, like the...

Orlando Wood (38:41)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Dani Van De Sande (39:04)
your creative workflows, new tools being introduced every week. It's a lot. So absolutely. And I think the more we can have those types of conversations on stage, like in our New York summit last year, one of my favorite conversations was with Vince Cadlebuck, who's the founder of Meow Wolf, which is, listeners don't know, it's an incredible, I mean, just look up Meow Wolf. First of all, the name is so cool. But it's basically this, ⁓ it's this,

Orlando Wood (39:08)
Yeah. Yeah.

Mm-hmm. No, please, please explain it,

Dani Van De Sande (39:34)
it was this collective of artists that just started physically making crazy artistic spaces that have been now compared to like... ⁓

You know, they're big, like big art playgrounds compared to like the next Disney, but like through experiential art. And in that realm, it's all about the craft, right? And so someone like Vince comes up on stage and he's not, he isn't, he's not super keen on AI and using AI, right? And so his perspective is there might be a few like small things we can solve for there, but generally we're leaning into craft more.

Orlando Wood (40:15)
Yeah.

Dani Van De Sande (40:15)
⁓

And so I think having those different perspectives at a table and valuing, right? It's almost like the more AI becomes useful, the more craft becomes valuable. So yeah, anyways.

Orlando Wood (40:25)
Yeah.

Yeah, I

100 % agree with that actually. I think that, and as well, think that, you know, somebody said something like, or, know, we have a real craft problem at the moment. And I disagree with that. I've like, I watched somebody clean a rug for 15 minutes on TikTok the other day. It it was really, it really calmed my brain. And I watched another guy, you know, mow a lawn or take over, some old lady had let her lawn get overgrown and some guy came in and he did her lawn. These people are craftsmen doing what they

Dani Van De Sande (40:43)
my God. It's like ASMR.

Orlando Wood (40:56)
They're just getting better at showing people what the craft looks like and weirdly I think that like the old distribution models of a film Everybody embargoes their craft until the film is out the film comes out Everybody sees it and then they'll have like a making of documentary or something like that and then I actually think that The entertainment company should be flipping it more and let me see the production designer

building the sets for Superman or creating the costumes for Superman prior to the movie, let them share their craft. I mean, I think that wouldn't it be fantastic if somebody went to go see Superman because they loved the production designer's content and they loved what they were doing and they went to the movie not for David Coren Sweat, not because it's Superman, because they love the production designer. I should come to this story with the name of the production designer so I can G them up.

Dani Van De Sande (41:31)
Right.

Yeah.

Totally.

Total.

Orlando Wood (41:52)
I think that like, you know, we don't have a craft problem. have a, we have a, you know, ⁓ the, the old distribution models and the old media companies have a craft withholding problem. They don't let us see those craftsmen. They like us to think that it's all just, you know, James Gunn or the director came out of the director's mind perfectly. And they don't sort of allow the craftspeople to shine. And I think that's kind of a shame. think that, yeah, you're right. Like the, focus on

Dani Van De Sande (42:10)
Hmm.

Orlando Wood (42:22)
could kind of be the savior of everything.

Dani Van De Sande (42:25)
Yeah, I mean, and I think those are, yo, the artists that I look up to like Paige Pysken or...

Orlando Wood (42:31)
Yeah, she's great.

Dani Van De Sande (42:31)
⁓

She's just an incredible creator in the space or like just any of that like Rafik Anadol that like the way that they string these tools together and create their own train their own models on their own work and ⁓ There's this other artist Pindar van Arman who we had at one of our earlier events who's like basically training a robot to become his hand like You know and that is craft like that is not easy. That is not pressing a button and something gets generated This is complex like there is craft to

Orlando Wood (42:43)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Dani Van De Sande (43:01)
And that's where the human craft still exists. It's not good if there isn't that craftsmanship.

Orlando Wood (43:10)
Yeah.

Dani Van De Sande (43:14)
and individual taste and nuance in how the thing gets made. I think showing that process is very interesting, at least to us nerds. Like maybe not everyone, but we try to do that on our stages. Like it's interesting and not enough people show that and it demystifies it too.

Orlando Wood (43:23)
Yeah. Yeah, 100%.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, 100%. I mean, that gets into something else I wanted to talk about. mean, what?

What gets you most excited? know, like when you, you know, cause obviously people are just putting forward to you things that they want to include in the event. What's your editorial high bar and where do you go? Holy shit. Like how does it, what do you get most excited about when you see and you go, I have to have this at our event and it's going to inspire so many people.

Dani Van De Sande (44:05)
I think it's people who've created something that couldn't exist before, or something that was created that couldn't exist before. So for example, this is kind of an interesting example, but the micro dramas, like that.

Orlando Wood (44:10)
Huh.

Dani Van De Sande (44:22)
whatever you wanna say about that new medium, that medium didn't exist before some of these tech, like AI, some of these technologies specifically existed, right? So it's like, how, rather than just trying to take things from the previous paradigm and then recreate them, a film is not really a film anymore. It's completely different. The medium is shifting. So anything that's inventing something new or that's a truly creative, are we actually being creative or are we just reinventing the wheel?

Who's really pushing this forward? And when I'm experiencing something, is it making me feel something? ⁓ That to me is great art. Those same rules apply, it's like who's able to ingest and understand these new tools and really understand and create the new formats and do things that weren't possible before?

Orlando Wood (45:19)
Yeah.

Dani Van De Sande (45:20)
Because

that is inspiring and unlocks more of that. ⁓

Orlando Wood (45:26)
Yeah,

it's funny. It becomes more like performance art, doesn't it? I mean, and you sort of I realize very often my biases where I'm like, okay, is that going to make films better? Is that going to make social media quality? Is that going to make short films better? Is that going to make art better? Is that going to make print campaigns better? And I'm still looking at through that that ⁓

that previous lens. ⁓ And you're right, it's those people who are putting together things that feel so unique, they're creating a new type of experience. And it becomes more like performance art, doesn't it? I mean, you know, yeah.

Dani Van De Sande (46:06)
Yeah, like Meow Wolf is like, okay, well, this was what the museum was, and this is what Disneyland or theme park is like, what if there's something completely new? What if rather than looking at art on a screen, we were in it? And what if it actually wasn't very commercial and it was just completely crazy and out there and straight from an artist's brain and vision? So ⁓ yeah, I think it's an.

For example, like an AI film festival. To me that doesn't make sense, right? It's not film anymore. It's something, we're inventing new mediums and ways of telling stories that are completely different than before. I think naturally we like to relate to things that we know, but I almost like challenge people to kind of let go of that and think of almost like return to the abstract to like recreate, because it's a completely new unlock and there are new mediums that are coming out of this, so.

Orlando Wood (47:00)
Yeah,

I spoke to somebody named Omar Karim who used to be at Meta and he's a creative technologist and he, again, he...

is pulling off an art heist of the British Museum where he's, he realized that on the British Museum they have pictures of all of the things that the British Museum has stolen over the years from, you know, from antiquity and whatever else. But it also had the dimensions of everything. So he was like, okay, what if I scrape all of that, send all of that information to create CAD files of it, create 3D printing models, and then sort of give Greece back the ability to essentially 3D print all of the stuff

Dani Van De Sande (47:21)
my god. ⁓

Mm-hmm.

Orlando Wood (47:39)
the British have stolen from Greece over the year all the Elgin marbles and everything from the Parthenon and and all those sorts of things and that's a you know one of those examples of is just a creative going at a problem seeing what's available and it didn't have a necessarily a financial upside he's just doing it because he can and going this is interesting this is a fascinating thing and then you get into the discussion of

Okay, you're basically data stealing something that eventually becomes physical ⁓ and then it reignites a conversation about Should the British Museum or the you know be still holding on to all of these things that are essentially Greece's antiquities and you know and Just hanging on to them, you know, like that maybe shouldn't be happening ⁓

Dani Van De Sande (48:11)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah

you

Yeah.

Orlando Wood (48:34)
But yeah, mean, and so what are, mean, are you able to talk about like, what are the exciting things and people you've got cooking up for your next one coming up in New York? Can you give us a peek, ⁓ you know, even a thematic idea of some things that might be ⁓ bubbling at the moment?

Dani Van De Sande (48:51)
Yeah,

definitely. it really is one of the sessions that were very successful in our LA summit was alien inside the machine, which was all about this conversation of like, consciousness, AI alignment. That's a really controversial topic. We're doubling down on it. We've got some really interesting researchers and

perspectives on that, we're definitely digging into that. Definitely digging into world models. The next kind of Google announced today, Project Genie, I think it was today or a couple days ago. There's a lot going on in spatial intelligence. The medium is going from video into 3D. That's pretty fucking crazy, so we'll be digging into that. We've got big shoes to fill with grimes. We've got some really cool names.

Orlando Wood (49:28)
Yeah. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Dani Van De Sande (49:37)
know, lining up and we'll start to announce things in the next couple of weeks. So we're very excited. know, each event, it's like, all right, what is it? What is what's conversation in New York in spring of twenty twenty six? What's brewing? Right. So it's every time it's so interesting because the world is completely different from six months ago. You know, it's just moving at an exponential rate.

Orlando Wood (49:42)
Great.

Mm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

What do you think the conversation is now that I mean, you're you're literally formulating that decision in real time. What what is the biggest conversation? What's the hardest nut to crack? Like what do you think about the state of everything right now?

Dani Van De Sande (50:14)
Yeah.

Ugh, it's hard to answer that in one go, but I would say a few threads are the...

It's very interesting if you look at some of these big companies that are starting to announce and actually build things with some of the foundational models, right? So for example, the Disney OpenAI announcement, UMG and Nvidia, right? There's a lot of things happening at the legacy company level where they're saying, all right, we're doing stuff, we're here to play. And at the same time, they're suing other models. it's like, I think the legacy companies are starting to...

Orlando Wood (50:43)
Yeah.

Dani Van De Sande (50:54)
go out and do things. Whereas last year, like that's picking up because they're realizing, you know, even though it's controversial, they're playing and they're starting to build things in the space. I think the tech talk, like looking at some of those announcements and what they are and seeing how like IP and licensing is unfolding in real time. And that whole thing is like, it's a living evolution, right? That's unfolding before our eyes and changing on a weekly basis. So we're definitely

digging into that. We're trying to get under the hood with some of these organizations to understand what they're actually doing beneath the headline and the announcement. Okay, what does that mean? That OpenAI and Disney have a partnership, right? So there's that. And then there's...

the artists like paradox and journey which continues like that Grimes talk was very much that now we continue that conversation and we expand the medium so now we're looking we're digging more into spatial because world models are coming to light right and there's more of their artists are playing with that now it's not just video it's 3d ⁓

Orlando Wood (52:04)
Yeah.

Dani Van De Sande (52:04)
And then we're looking at like robotics, right? So it's like, what is robotics, like creative expressions in robotics look like? So as the technology shifts, you know, the applications with those mediums continue to evolve. And so we're always trying to find like last year in New York, we didn't have a musical artist playing with robotics on stage this year. I think we will. So it's yeah, it's just moving with the media, like the creative expression that evolves as the medium evolves.

Orlando Wood (52:27)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah. That's fast. Well, I'm very excited. I mean, I think it's going to be great. How are you for time, by the way? Do you have maybe four five more minutes? OK, great. Because, I would love to understand, you know, we talked before about creatives and technologists still talking past each other. I think that your event is one where they can both feel totally at home.

Dani Van De Sande (52:42)
Yeah, have a couple of, yeah, yeah.

Orlando Wood (52:57)
I would like to ask just a dual part question, is, what would you want a technologist to get most out of your event? And what would you want a creative to get most out of your event?

Dani Van De Sande (53:08)
Yeah, and I always, like, alright, please everyone who attended, tell me, what can we do better? I don't want to speak for them. But I think you could walk away with the concrete unlocks and, you know, real time...

things that are happening at the foundational model, at the technology level, inference level, model training level, right? So you can walk away because all those platforms are in the room, right? Our sponsors and our partners who show up are anyone from 11 Labs to Adobe to Luma AI to AWS, right? They're there and they're showing the latest things, right? So you get to walk away with those tangible like new unlocks and features and skills from a technical standpoint.

point,

Orlando Wood (53:56)
Yeah.

Dani Van De Sande (53:56)
or you could lean more and that's for creatives as well because they're getting you know they're seeing the latest creative unlocks. So ⁓ and or for those who maybe are facing a little bit of writer's block or feeling overwhelmed or lacking inspiration like come and be inspired you know look at what this artist did overnight right that

Orlando Wood (54:01)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Hmm.

Dani Van De Sande (54:21)
is now possible. So I think there's both the concrete, the Adobe being on our stage, being able to share a bunch of the things that just got released with us was so fricking cool. was like, shit, Adobe's now with Foundry, they're building on top of all these models. That wasn't the case a month ago. So you get to get the tangible kind of technical updates and...

Orlando Wood (54:21)
Yeah. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Dani Van De Sande (54:47)
If you just want creative inspiration and you just want to believe in humanity again, like maybe come to Artists Machines and just be inspired.

Orlando Wood (54:52)
Yeah

Yeah.

Well, it's

definitely that. It's definitely incredibly inspirational. I'm really excited for the next one. I have one more question that I'm trying to get back to asking everybody and feel free to answer or not. But I used to have a boss named Dan Wyden who was a legend in advertising and he had this quote where he said, you're useless to me unless you fucked up big at least twice. And so can you remember and would you be willing to admit a time where you fucked up big and what you learned from it?

Dani Van De Sande (55:18)
I love it.

I love that so much. If you're not doing something that's polarizing, it doesn't really matter, right? So people are gonna love it. If people love it or hate it, you're in a good place. ⁓ If everyone's kinda neutral about it, what are you doing?

I think for me, just in my journey as a founder, because I had a company before and I've always been obsessed with entrepreneurship and making something out of nothing, focus in a time when there's so many shiny objects and things you can do and distractions. The whole world is trying to get our attention to just do one thing really fucking well and like, sorry, my language, but yeah, it's.

Orlando Wood (56:06)
No, go for it. This is a swear,

swear possible zone.

Dani Van De Sande (56:10)
Yeah, and like I

think artists in the machine can mean so many things. It can be so many things, but for us, the thing that really matters right now is creating this moment, this day, where everyone comes together in the industry and shapes what happens next in it. And everyone in that room belongs there. ⁓

and we just continue to refine that and make that the best it can be, that focus is big learning, because it's so easy to be distracted. that's, Sometimes simplifying things in this crazy time is nice, you know?

Orlando Wood (56:42)
Awesome, well... Yeah, absolutely.

Well listen, thank you so much for chatting with me. I so respect what you've done. I think it's so awesome. ⁓ Can you tell me, when is the New York Summit? Like, let's plug this thing, get people to get some early bird tickets.

Dani Van De Sande (57:00)
Yes, plug it. right. All right. Love it.

Yeah, May 14 in New York. Can't wait. It's our second ever New York one and we've got amazing lineup and yeah, thank you so much for for having me and I hope everyone we can keep in touch and can follow our journey and welcome any ideas and things that we can do to help help our community in this in this space. So

Orlando Wood (57:21)
Yeah, for sure.

Absolutely. Well, you won't be getting rid of me easy. I can't wait for the next one. It's such a great event. ⁓ What was great was this time it opened with this incredible AI face of you. You're getting put together like a robot, which I think is going to be the thumbnail of this episode. ⁓ It was so badass and really fun and irreverent. It wasn't ⁓ overly serious or never devolved into boring or

Dani Van De Sande (57:43)
God. It'll continue. I love it. Thank you.

Orlando Wood (57:59)
or and certainly never devolved into being the same as anything else. I really loved it and I hope people will go out and buy ⁓ tickets immediately. ⁓ So thank you, Danny. I really appreciate you giving me the time.

Dani Van De Sande (58:09)
⁓ thank you.

Appreciate you and see you soon and if not, see you in May in New York.

Orlando Wood (58:14)
Absolutely.

For sure you will. Thanks so much Danny. Bye bye.

Dani Van De Sande (58:17)
Appreciate it. Bye.