Curation, AI, and the Problem of Infinite Content with Danny Edwards

Orlando Wood (00:46.11)
Great. Danny Edwards, co editor of Shots Magazine Shots. Net website awards, all of that kind of stuff. Thank you for coming on the podcast. I'm really excited to have you on.

Danny Edwards (01:05.37)
very happy to be here. Thank you for asking me. I'm looking forward to chatting to you.

Orlando Wood (01:08.782)
Pleasure, absolutely. It's nice to have you on. It's nice to see a friendly face. I'm excited to talk to you because I think that maybe you should give an introduction to shots to anybody who may not know what it is. But I'm very excited because you seem to be at the epicenter of a lot of different technological shifts and I can't wait to talk to you about it.

Danny Edwards (01:13.692)
You

Danny Edwards (01:32.262)
So yeah, so that basically I should have prepared a pithy articulate response to this question, but yeah, Shots is essentially a kind of business to business publication that covers the advertising arena and more specifically the creative advertising arena. So we showcase work from around the globe, commercial work, we write about the people that...

Orlando Wood (01:37.41)
That's okay. We always have editing.

Danny Edwards (01:57.02)
make that work, directors, creatives, producers, VFX artists, all the people that are involved. Predominantly it is video based stuff, so film, TV commercials, short films, music videos. We do venture out into other things as well and we're trying to do that more and more over the past few years, but yeah, our kind of history and our kind of eye falls often on the video content.

Orlando Wood (02:24.31)
Yeah, I mean, listen, and you know, you also have a large award show that used to be sort of quite emmy of focus, but you know, you now have shots awards, emmy, shots, awards, America's shots, awards, Asia. And as well, you know, you are like you said, a celebratory place for the best work being created by music video creators, commercial filmmakers, short filmmakers, directors, producers. It's a really great.

Danny Edwards (02:29.815)
We do.

Orlando Wood (02:53.598)
central point where so much of the great work happening in advertising sort of comes to meet.

Danny Edwards (02:59.844)
Yeah, mean, Shots has always been a good place to be, I think, because it's a good news publication. We always sort of say it's a good news publication because we don't focus on the bad. So we never kind of write about stuff that we don't think is good or we don't flag up things that we think are terrible ideas or badly executed. It's only the things that we think are interesting and kind of worth sharing.

Orlando Wood (03:21.846)
Yeah, I mean, and for years, I mean, when I first got into the industry, being in the Shots magazine, which was at that point was the core part of your business, was the goal of every producer. First of all, it was the only way a producer could get into a periodical. Nobody in campaign was writing about producers. So that was very exciting. But also you guys dig down and really have a deep knowledge of production, execution and and just the craft of production.

Danny Edwards (03:36.88)
Yeah.

Orlando Wood (03:50.946)
which I think, you know, a lot of people, think do do recognize that a lot of developments and shifts start in commercials. mean, you know, the shift to digital and the airy happened arguably more in commercials than it did, you know, than it did in film.

Danny Edwards (04:08.572)
Yeah, you're right. I think commercials is often the proving ground for new technology. Directors want to try it and they want to try it on a 30 second or 60 second TV commercial before other people might take that on board for feature films. And as much as you say you're right, the magazine was and still is to a certain degree a central part of what Shots is. Actually, it was the DVD and then before that the VHS that was the...

the kind of core thing that people kind of coveted and wanted to be on because that was I guess pre internet almost, but certainly pre YouTube. So you couldn't see work from other countries, certainly not easily. So, you know, being able to see work from Scandinavia or India or Japan or, you know, anywhere in the world, if it was good and it was on the shots reel, that's what people really kind of gravitated towards. And then from there we covered the people that made that work in the magazine. So yeah.

Orlando Wood (05:04.59)
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's funny because that felt at that time, obviously you were curating the best of the best. It was very hard to get that information. mean, pre internet, obviously it was very difficult to find out. Like you either had to be at the conference or can or the one club to see that stuff. Or you had to have seen it on television.

Is it harder to curate that in an age where that's all accessible to everybody? Everybody kind of makes up their own minds, directs their own path through the internet or through YouTube. Is it harder to be that place in the age of infinite content and infinite ability to see everything?

Danny Edwards (05:52.85)
I suppose there's two ways of answering it. One is, yeah, it's harder.

partly because there's more of it. Obviously there was a competitive element when YouTube came out and when the internet became much more accessible and download speeds increased and stuff, that was obviously a big, you could argue that YouTube is essentially the biggest competitor to what we do because you can find all the stuff that we do on there, but you have to know what you're looking for. So now there's much more of it, so it makes it more difficult to find it sometimes or certainly to go through it. We get sent a hell of a lot of stuff every month to go through it.

Orlando Wood (06:25.614)
Mm.

Danny Edwards (06:25.954)
But possibly you can argue that it's even more necessary because there's so much stuff because there's so much content out there so many ads you're bombarded with them, know, there's so many made so having a you know shots is has always been that kind of filter process where you know, well kind of we'll kind of do that hard work for you and obviously you have to trust our opinion and our judgment and you have to kind of understand what we're looking at and we have to understand what is interesting and useful but you know, we do that work of filtering out what we don't think is worth seeing

Orlando Wood (06:31.214)
Mm.

Orlando Wood (06:44.942)
Yeah.

Danny Edwards (06:55.784)
or in our view is not quite as strong as some other stuff. And then we kind of reflect back what the advertising industry is doing across any day, week, month.

Orlando Wood (07:06.264)
Yeah. And what is editorially yours? You know, are there things that you see and you go, yeah, that's maybe right for campaign, but it's not right for us. You know, are there thing, you know, are there editorial decisions you make that are uniquely shots that you wouldn't expect to see made in other periodicals?

Danny Edwards (07:27.164)
I don't know, I mean, suppose we've always, although we're a business to business magazine, so I said at beginning, we're a B2B product, but we don't really, we're not about the business of advertising. So we don't look at it from that sort of angle. We're not about how effective a commercial is really, that's not something we necessarily concern ourselves with. So what we're looking at is the idea and the execution. I mean, I suppose to kind paraphrase John Haggerty, a great ad is 80 % idea and 80 % execution.

That's kind of how we approach it and sometimes execution can kind of paper over the cracks of an idea to a certain degree So, you know where we're kind of guilty of sometimes well that looks amazing even though it's a not a particularly Fantastic idea, but we try to make sure that it's getting in the message across obviously It's of impactful and interesting and more and more I think it's got to be entertaining and that doesn't mean it has to be funny or dramatic necessarily But it needs to be something that someone will will gravitate towards

Orlando Wood (08:06.542)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Orlando Wood (08:25.804)
Yeah, because it seems to me, you know, when I see things that are announced in campaigns, sometimes I go, well, I don't or at age or whatever else, go, well, I won't expect to see that in shots. If it's a great, brave, creative idea, it seems that they're awarding or showcasing that stuff a lot more. And if it's just in-camera dialogue between two people, I don't expect to see it on shots. Shots seems to me the place where you really celebrate

Danny Edwards (08:52.08)
Yeah.

Orlando Wood (08:55.512)
great craft, great production execution, great directors' visions, and clever ways of coming at the problem.

Danny Edwards (09:04.484)
Yeah, I think you're right to a degree. mean, filmmaking is at the heart of it and so great, interesting, creative filmmaking is kind of at the heart of what Shots does. I think if it's a clever idea, cleverly created and executed, regardless of whether it's just two people talking to camera or whether it's something fairly simplistic, because some of the best ads are, in essence, relatively simplistic, but if it's done well and it's got a great idea, then I think we're, and again, as long as it's

kind of moving image content then it's something that we we try and kind of you know gravitate towards and look at and kind of consider to be part of what the shots canon is because that's what we that's what we're sort of there for really I would say.

Orlando Wood (09:47.938)
Yeah. And has it become more difficult to define what meets your standard today? Or just with so much out there, yeah, have you changed? Does that remain the same this entire time? Or do you think that you're changing what is defined as good or shots worthy?

Danny Edwards (10:11.1)
No, it's a good question. suppose, I guess I would say that...

the standard has kind of remained the same. We still look for that great idea and great execution, so that's never really changed in all the years that I've been there and that remains the same. I guess the difference is how that presents itself sometimes and certainly in length and where you find that stuff. There's lots of work that you get and you think, this is good, this starts well and you're 10, 20, 30 seconds and it's great, but then four minutes later you're still going and you're like, well, that's...

I got that idea and I got that sort of vibe and what you're trying to tell me in the first 30, 60 seconds and now I'm still sitting here and I feel like you've just made a four or five minute commercial because you could, not necessarily because you should. So sometimes the struggles in kind of working out what people, what is good advertising I suppose, as much as what is good filmmaking, what is good advertising. And sometimes those lines blur and obviously we're relatively small team.

Orlando Wood (10:55.572)
Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Danny Edwards (11:14.678)
five of us all together but and we have different sensibilities so you know what some person you know one of the guys might like I might not might not or vice versa and some people are slightly more you know they're less sort of harsh maybe I sort of I'm generally quite sort of critical and quite hard to please but you know we try as a team that's quite a good thing because we you know we come together we all it's not just one person's opinion it's a group opinion of like okay this is why we should

Orlando Wood (11:16.568)
Mm-hmm.

Orlando Wood (11:22.52)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Danny Edwards (11:44.488)
or this is why we shouldn't or this is why we should talk to this person or this is why we shouldn't. So yeah, you know, but it is quite hard sometimes to work out. The difficult thing always is most people, regardless of whether you work in this business or not, can tell you what a good ad is and most people could tell you what a terrible ad is. It's that bit in the middle that can be quite hard to define. So, you know, if you see a fantastic, if you watch Guinness Surfer, you know, everyone's going, well, that's amazing filmmaking and a great idea and brilliantly,

Orlando Wood (12:07.694)
Mm.

Danny Edwards (12:14.398)
created and something that's terrible where everyone knows. You know, it's the stuff in between that you kind of have to work a little bit harder to figure out if it's if it's kind of worthy or not.

Orlando Wood (12:25.038)
I mean, you you guys are all kind of positive, you know, in your in your, you know, in your editorial eye, but you also do have like, you know, edit people come in and editorialize, you know, like, for example, the, the, when the McDonald's ad came out from, you know, DB, DDB, that was an entirely end to end AI made ad, you know, Toby Walsh came on and, and talk talked about how, you know, it being pulled was good for the industry.

Danny Edwards (12:49.254)
Mm-hmm.

Orlando Wood (12:55.416)
Do you just give kind of creative reign for people to come out? Does that reflect your view or, know, and what do you feel about that?

Danny Edwards (13:03.96)
No, doesn't reflect, I mean, doesn't reflect, it might reflect our view, I suppose, sometimes, that, you know, what people might say and think might be reflective of what I or one of the other members of the team says or thinks, but we don't, it doesn't have to do that. I mean, you know, what you don't want from an opinion piece is, know, you want someone to have an opinion and that opinion doesn't always have to reflect what you, what you sort of think. In the same way as we post ads that, you know, there's products that I wouldn't buy and don't have a particular affinity towards, but it's not my job to kind of, you

Orlando Wood (13:07.81)
Right. Yeah.

Danny Edwards (13:33.854)
decide what is advertised and what isn't or what we show and what isn't based on the product in the same way as the opinions I mean we try and garner those opinions because they're the experts in the field. I mean none of us on shots You know, I never say that I've worked in advertising because I don't really I mean I've never worked at a production company I've never worked in an agency So although I know a good amount about it and I talked to a lot of people who do work in those fields so can have a kind of an opinion of how things are and what things are

Orlando Wood (13:43.256)
Hmm. Mm-hmm.

Orlando Wood (13:50.126)
Hmm. Hmm.

Danny Edwards (14:03.874)
sort going well and what aren't, I don't have the granular sort of insight to a lot of producers or directors or creative directors and stuff like that so it's important for shots to kind of get those opinions because they might have a completely new insight on something that we don't. In the same way as every time we have a focus, most months on the site is a specific focus, it might be comedy, might be animation, might be welfare or whatever it might be and we can come up with ideas and we pitch.

Orlando Wood (14:08.844)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Danny Edwards (14:33.694)
sorry we commission kind of articles based on that but at the same time we often get pitch things we didn't even think of that that didn't even cross our minds as being a particular topic that people might associate with this kind of overarching focus and that's what we're looking for because you know we're trying to be reflective of what the industry is not just in what they produce because obviously that's important the work that we showcase is important but reflective of you know what the industry is thinking and feeling and what people are talking about and what's important and what

Orlando Wood (14:42.042)
Mmm. Yeah.

Danny Edwards (15:03.614)
what's not and so yeah you have to kind of get those opinions across and as long as they're not press releases I mean that's the one thing we always go back to people some people kind of send you I've written this know this opinion piece which is essentially an advert for their company and how great they are at what they do which I don't doubt they are but you know that's not what that sort of section of the site is for.

Orlando Wood (15:28.63)
Right. mean, just to kind of talk about, you know, obviously the AI of it all. And for me, McDonald's seems a very interesting way into that, which is, the McDonald's ad that was a Christmas ad come out that was brought out by DDB, Naboco. It was end to end created with AI with the sweet shops sort of AI arm.

Danny Edwards (15:34.78)
Mm.

Orlando Wood (15:54.018)
I think it was having lived in the Netherlands, what was funny to me about it was the, the humor, the tone of humor was very Dutch. I could see why it wasn't, it didn't go down a treat everywhere else in the world. And we live in a world where you can't really just do a local execution. Everybody in the world is going to see it. and so this, this notion of, Christmas is here again. That sucks. It was very, very Dutch.

Danny Edwards (16:07.333)
Yeah, yeah.

Danny Edwards (16:14.97)
Yeah.

Danny Edwards (16:19.396)
Yeah,

Orlando Wood (16:21.804)
But I think it's an interesting thing. Did you guys, did you guys put that up when that came out? Did you guys put that up, you know, as a something that you showcased?

Danny Edwards (16:32.154)
We did and I think because in part because it was AI. mean like the story, you know, at the moment when something comes out that is AI, the story is almost...

Orlando Wood (16:36.076)
Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm.

Danny Edwards (16:42.746)
that it's AI and sometimes that is reflected in the press release we get. So Coke, I can't remember if was last year or the year before, sent out their kind of Christmas, know, the kind of the holidays are coming, the truck and stuff and they kind of redone it in AI, you know, and it wasn't really any different or certainly any better than the original one, but the story was, you know, we've just made a hundred percent AI commercial. And so we wrote about that because it was AI in the same way as the McDonald's one. Yeah. And again, so some people in the team may have thought it was slightly better than other people.

Orlando Wood (16:44.236)
Yeah.

Orlando Wood (16:51.458)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Orlando Wood (17:04.77)
Yeah. Yeah.

Danny Edwards (17:12.75)
but the fact that it was a completely AI creation was kind of worthy of talking about almost regardless of whether it was good, bad or indifferent, it's kind of like, this is where we are now, I think in the same way as in the past.

Orlando Wood (17:26.53)
Yeah, it's some sort of technological achievement.

Danny Edwards (17:30.82)
Yeah, yeah, it's a leap into the sort of when I'm not necessarily unknown but certainly into the sort of you know relative unknown compared to where we've come from so it's worth talking about in that respect and yeah, you know, obviously it got a huge backlash and you know, lots of people were kind of cheering the fact that it eventually got pulled You know, which is difficult in some respects because none of that, you know, none of those people went into that I would assume thinking let's make a bad ad that everyone's gonna hate So, you know people people put their time and effort and their creativity into it. It just didn't let yeah, I mean partly like

Orlando Wood (17:54.99)
Of course. Yeah.

Danny Edwards (18:00.774)
say the idea as much as the execution is, you know, it didn't really sit brilliantly certainly in this country because of the kind of dark kind of instead of enjoying Christmas at home go to a McDonald's restaurant. don't think anyone's ever thought that have they? I don't know. Maybe Ronald McDonald has but that's pretty much it.

Orlando Wood (18:05.87)
Mmm.

Orlando Wood (18:18.165)
Well, it's I mean, it's those cultural differences are so key. Like in Japan, everybody goes to KFC for Christmas dinner. You know, it's it's considered a tradition. It's very interesting to me because, obviously, you know, any other new technology used in an ad would be celebrated in many ways. You know, I know that.

Danny Edwards (18:28.411)
Yeah, yeah.

Orlando Wood (18:41.122)
What's also interesting to me is that that was a local ad, which means that its budget was far lower. And they did do a lot of work to put that together. I completely understand everybody's being up in arms about it. But yes, I thought it was great that you guys kind of put it up there because undeniably, it is a step in a direction. It is using a tool.

Danny Edwards (19:05.5)
Mm-hmm.

Orlando Wood (19:06.765)
to fundamentally craft a commercial in a different way. And if that were used with bullet time, if it were used with any other major shift, like we just talked about, was a huge, I got to be around one of the first ads that David Fincher used, the red cam. And that would drop frames in the middle of shooting. And those sorts of shifts,

play out. And I think that, you I sort of I think it's very interesting that you guys are kind of in this position where you go, well, undeniably, we have to show it. We are about how technology and production are changing. But then as well, you get to kind of go, OK, and we'll speak to people who are knowledgeable about and let them write articles about what they think it means for the industry. It seems it seems a great.

position to be able to be in because you can, you.

don't have to have a go at anybody's work. Like, at the end of the day, a group of people worked on that quite hard. And I think that, like, that's what I quite like about shots is that it's sort of respecting the work that's being put in rather than casting aspersions on the whole thing.

Danny Edwards (20:27.322)
Yeah, mean, like I said before, we don't showcase stuff if we don't think it's good. We're reliant on people to send their work in to us so that we can look at it. I'm sure everyone that sends anything to us thinks that it's worthy of us writing about. So what we don't do, which I wouldn't want to do anyway, even if we could, is flag a piece of work and go, this company and this person sent us this and look at it, it's terrible, it's rubbish.

Orlando Wood (20:31.575)
Mm. Mm.

Orlando Wood (20:44.494)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Orlando Wood (20:55.502)
Mm.

Danny Edwards (20:56.284)
Because a campaign's Turkey of the Week gets a lot of, some people kind of think it's good, lots of people think it's not a great way of working. Undeniably bad news sort of is often successful and posts that are critical and things that kind of slacking stuff off get a bit more traction than the ones that don't. But yeah, we've always worked to the sort of opinion that we want to write about stuff that we think is good. that was, I guess we did think that was good. We thought it was interesting,

Orlando Wood (20:59.96)
Mm.

Orlando Wood (21:04.046)
Mmm.

Orlando Wood (21:10.19)
Mm.

Orlando Wood (21:14.204)
Mmm.

Danny Edwards (21:26.238)
good for what an AI commercial could do. yeah, you're right, write, technology is an important part of it. I remember writing, I can't remember when this was, I guess the early 2000s when Burger King did, I think it was Burger King, a subservient chicken. I don't know if you remember that where there was a guy in a room and you could type in commands and he would do those things over, you know, it was like magic. was over, you you could type in at your keyboard and someone, wherever they are in the world, acts these things out. You know, but the execution wasn't great in terms of it didn't look amazing.

Orlando Wood (21:26.862)
Mm. Mm. Mm.

Orlando Wood (21:39.758)
Mmm. Yeah.

Orlando Wood (21:46.595)
Yeah.

Orlando Wood (21:52.354)
Yeah.

Danny Edwards (21:56.158)
But it was a completely new way of advertising and it was worth sort of celebrating and kind of certainly discussing because that's something we hadn't seen before Obviously, it seems strange now to think that that is that was an amazing technological leap But you know, that's how these things work, right? So so yeah, you know We were always interested in what new technology might be coming along and how it might be used and often we don't even know there's you know VFX now have become so ubiquitous and so amazing that you're often sitting there thinking

Orlando Wood (22:02.114)
Mmm.

Orlando Wood (22:13.432)
Yeah.

Orlando Wood (22:22.39)
Mm. Mm.

Danny Edwards (22:26.258)
I think that's not real. I'm guessing that's not real and they didn't shoot there or they didn't use that whatever it was but you don't always know. You know there is still that thing with AI that you can kind of tell. I mean it's becoming less and less the case now. You can almost not tell the difference but there is still at the moment it feels like I'm pretty sure I can see the shine on that that that's not that's not a real person or a real location or whatever it might be.

Orlando Wood (22:28.706)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Orlando Wood (22:38.626)
Yeah.

Orlando Wood (22:46.638)
Mm. Yeah.

Orlando Wood (22:52.418)
Yeah, because I mean, I was talking to Darren O'Kelly at, at Untold Studios and he was like, listen, in a, in a thousand or thousands of steps post process. Yeah, of course we're using AI of various things, but we're judging it through the lens of where is it better? Not always. Where is it faster or saving money? And when they get asked about, can't we use AI in this? What most people mean is can't we save money with this? You know, is it, shouldn't, shouldn't this be cheaper? He's like, but we work with some of the most excellent creators in the world.

Danny Edwards (23:16.176)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Orlando Wood (23:21.99)
And we're looking for, we're judging it. Sure. Can it make the timeline, you know, more compact that frees us up to make more decisions or make it better? We're putting it through that lens. We're not necessarily putting it through the lens of, can this be cheap and can we prompt an ad just out of an AI?

Danny Edwards (23:41.124)
Yeah, I mean, that's the case though, isn't it? know, obviously people, companies, businesses and business owners want things to be done cheaper, generally, you know, and artists and creatives don't. mean, you know, over, you know, not just, not just over COVID, but before that and, but certainly during COVID, user generated content became a big thing, obviously, partly because people couldn't get out and film and couldn't make stuff and go to different locations. You know, user generated content is generally cheap and easy to sort of access, but it's not

necessarily particularly good. So post COVID, you don't really see user generated content commercials because they're not that good. They were off the moment because they were necessary and useful. You know, and sometimes they might be used brilliantly. But you know, I guess, you know, if you want to make an interesting and sort of attractive attention grabbing commercial, cheapness isn't necessarily the best way to go. Because like we said before, you know, like it is about attention, because there's so much stuff out there, whatever it might be, whether it's

Orlando Wood (24:19.127)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Orlando Wood (24:39.075)
Yeah.

Danny Edwards (24:40.978)
advertising or other things you know trying to get someone's attention is you know next to impossible so if you're making something a cheap be bad then what's the what's the point really

Orlando Wood (24:47.032)
Mm-hmm.

Orlando Wood (24:51.074)
Yeah. Yeah. Are we fast approaching a point where other than the new, you know, the new features that AI comes out with, are we fast approaching the point or are we already there where AI isn't a story anymore? I mean, surely now that the McDonald's thing is at if out, if somebody else does a fully AI ad, is it even a story now?

Danny Edwards (25:14.608)
I don't know. mean, I suppose depends what the ad is. mean, if it is a kind of step forward of like, well, this, you know, not only can you not see the drawings, you can't tell this, you know, I'm gonna have to tell you this is AI, because no one will tell otherwise, then I guess that's probably a story. I don't think we're at that point yet. You know, I haven't seen anything personally that makes me think well, I cannot tell the difference. Certainly not in a commercial. There's some stuff online that you can think of, you know, they've told me that it's not real, but it doesn't look, it looks absolutely real. But in a commercial sense, I've not seen anything that

sort of says to me well you know I cannot see the difference between real life and sort of the fakery of AI but you know so there is still some stuff you we got today a music video or kind of partial music video sent through the Rolling Stones and Fatboy Slim which is you know it's kind of obviously AI you can see it's AI but it's really well done it's kind of interesting it kind of leans into the kind of craziness of AI at points and it looks sort of interesting and it's entertaining and you kind of caught by it and you

Orlando Wood (26:03.64)
Mm-hmm

Orlando Wood (26:08.291)
Yeah.

Orlando Wood (26:13.027)
Yeah.

Danny Edwards (26:14.462)
Often for me that's the acid test, is do I want to watch it? Am I just watching it because I'm getting paid to watch this or would I actually watch it regardless? And I think that's often the acid test whether it's AI or otherwise.

Orlando Wood (26:17.996)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Orlando Wood (26:27.906)
Yeah, and I think that like with something like that, how do you go about pointing out that it is or isn't? mean, or do you like, is that a key part of the story when you're if you post it and just say, look at this great new thing that came out. It's good because of this, this, this, this and this. What responsibility or what pressure do you feel to go or not necessarily pressure from above, but like editorial pressure to go?

I think it's important that we highlight that 50 % of this was made with AI. Do you then go, use these specific tools? What does that feel like in terms of just where we're at writing about these things?

Danny Edwards (27:09.626)
Yeah, I mean it's a good question because I'm not sure we have kind of

qualified that ourselves of like, you know, generally speaking, we do mention when stuff is AI because it feels like you kind of should and people are kind of interested. But I mean, we don't mention now when stuff's VFX, you know, we don't sort of write when we write a story about an ad and there's obvious or maybe not obvious VFX. We might not necessarily mention that, you like you don't sort of you to kind of take it for granted now to a certain degree. So I think we'll at some point get to the place where actually, you know, AI

Orlando Wood (27:26.574)
Mm. Yeah.

Danny Edwards (27:43.87)
is just another tool that people use and it's sort of become just something else that's at your disposal and we won't necessarily talk about it to that degree. But as it's iterating and as it's evolving so quickly and there are so big leaps between where we were two years ago to where we are, or even where we were six months ago to where we are now, it feels like you kind of have to point it out because that technology is kind of evolving so quickly and what people can do with it and how it works. But yeah, I mean, we don't...

Orlando Wood (27:56.876)
Mmm. Mmm.

Danny Edwards (28:13.806)
I guess we do point out when it's AI, assuming, I think we do, assuming we know it's AI and we've been told it's AI, I think at the moment because people are kind of interested, and sometimes they're interested because they want to be against it, I would imagine, you know, they kind of want to not like it and kind of poo poo it slightly, but yeah, I mean it's the hot button topic of the last, well, couple of years I suppose, but certainly at the moment, know, that and sort of...

Orlando Wood (28:24.92)
Yeah.

Orlando Wood (28:29.292)
Right. Yeah.

Orlando Wood (28:39.17)
Yeah.

Danny Edwards (28:43.782)
production and sort of in-house stuff is what everyone's talking about.

Orlando Wood (28:50.402)
Yeah, I mean, I think that and they're likely going to lean on each other. I I expect that with in-house production wanting to expand their capabilities now, post-ready AI tools are in, you know, they have at their disposal, it's likely going to exacerbate the in-house production problem, if we're going to call it a problem, or opportunity for agencies.

Danny Edwards (29:14.084)
Yeah, I guess so. mean, you know, again, back to that point that companies will use the tools that they can and certainly tools that they think are going to sort of streamline their economic viability, you know, but I think that's definitely the case with in-house, you know, I'm sure they'll use all the tools at their disposal if they can, but I think so are lots of production companies that aren't.

Orlando Wood (29:22.574)
Mm-mm.

Danny Edwards (29:33.616)
you know, in-house agencies that they're opening AI arms and kind of getting more involved in that space and trying to understand it and make content and stuff. So, you know, I guess the Omni-Coms and the WPPs of this world have a slight head start maybe because of just the backing they've got and the, you know, the people they've got at their disposal and the amount of people. But I think, you know, independent production companies are still sort of stepping into that and doing the work that they think they need to as they should, you know, right? You know, it is a new technology.

Orlando Wood (29:42.328)
Yeah.

Orlando Wood (29:50.19)
Yeah.

Orlando Wood (30:00.846)
Yeah.

Danny Edwards (30:03.71)
know, lots of people are up in arms about it, know, sort of decrying it, but you know, that probably was the case when VFX came in and stop motion became, you know, or sort of less relevant and less sort of leaned upon. So, so it's just the sort of way that these things evolve.

Orlando Wood (30:15.33)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, it's also interesting to me that, like, you know, the Coca Cola ad you mentioned of them doing the AI Christmas ad came out right around the same time. I mean, within six months of the O2's granny that wastes scammers time. That was obviously all AI, and it was done by VCCP. Nobody had a problem with that. I mean, exactly same. mean, within the same window of like PR window.

Danny Edwards (30:36.932)
Yes. Yeah.

Danny Edwards (30:43.387)
Mmm.

Orlando Wood (30:48.802)
with exactly the same trajectory of our understanding and fears about AI, but that's a way that AI was used in a campaign and nobody had a problem with it. Yeah.

Danny Edwards (31:00.592)
Yeah, it's interesting. I don't know why that is actually. Maybe that's just because it was a kind of human beneficial sort of campaign. It was a helpful thing that people were kind of trying to say, like, you know, we're actually using AI to benefit, you know, old ladies or whoever it might be that's trying to get scammed. Whereas McDonald's is a much more...

Orlando Wood (31:08.524)
Yeah!

Orlando Wood (31:14.574)
Yeah. Yeah. Well, also you, you, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that, you know, you, there are two, I think there are a couple of things going on. One is great. You're wasting scammers time and ruining their day. Fabulous. Everybody can get on board with that. But also it's, it's coming up the creative idea. It's in the creative strategy. The creative strategy doesn't work without it. It would be prohibitively expensive to have banks of thousands of people doing that.

Danny Edwards (31:30.672)
Yeah, yeah.

Orlando Wood (31:44.238)
Um, so it's, it's leaning on two of the benefits of AI. And I also think that there is a social contract that happens with an ad that the underlying understanding of an ad is. This piece of media is a corporation asking me to part with my money. And very often it will tell me exactly when and how much of my money they want me to part with, you know, every month sign up for nine 99. Oh, go down to McDonald's and pay this much for a value meal.

before Christmas. They're giving me a window. They're telling me how much they're telling me how much money they want. And I think that when you use a tool to when you either make lazy advertising and or you don't put any effort or value into your production or you're lazy or you use tools like the you know, like AI to reduce cost. I think that there's a

Danny Edwards (32:12.636)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Orlando Wood (32:37.302)
you're undermining that social contract, which is you're asking me to part with my money, but you're refusing to spend money to ask me to part with my money. That's a, that's quite a, that's quite a rude and undermining, you know, you're trying to basically get me to pay for, give you my money for as little money as possible on your end. And when I can see that I'm uncool with.

Danny Edwards (32:45.968)
Yeah, that's...

Danny Edwards (32:50.214)
Yeah, yeah.

Danny Edwards (32:57.521)
Yeah.

Yeah, I get that, that makes perfect sense. And I suppose potentially, you know, the one with the grannies and the phone line, I mean, you know, that could have been, I guess that could have been a real granny. Like the AI element of it was also the phone calls and the kind of the voice stuff that you're not necessarily hearing or seeing, you know, and that.

Orlando Wood (33:15.607)
Mm, yeah.

Danny Edwards (33:20.142)
as video that was pretty low fire, right? It's just a kind of gra- I mean, I'm sure it took a lot of time to get the granny to look how she did it, but essentially it was locked off camera with her talking to camera. There's not that much film- easy for me to say, but there's not that much filmmaking expertise in that. Whereas the McDonald's one is, you know, location scouts and costumers and set design and cinematographers and all that sort of stuff. So you're, know, you're, you're discounting a whole raft of jobs that could have been taken by sort of different people and, you know, actual

Orlando Wood (33:26.178)
Yeah. Yeah.

Mm. Mm-hmm.

Danny Edwards (33:50.046)
people and you're kind of farming it out to AI. maybe there's something in that. yeah, I think everyone is just trying to find their way in this and trying to work out how they can use it, what they can use it for, when they should or shouldn't use it, and where it's going because it's evolving so quickly that you think you've got a handle on it and then next week it's sort of, oh no, no, can do this now. It's fast moving to say the least.

Orlando Wood (34:05.902)
Hmm.

Orlando Wood (34:09.614)
Mmm.

Yeah. Yeah, listen, I'd love to get into the, you know, the the trajectory of shots itself. Obviously you guys have lived through. You started as a VHS and DVD curation company, you know, sending things out by subscription. You then had the magazine, which was the industry said I still have physical copies of shots around. It's it's beautifully published. It's you know, I was lucky enough to be in it once or twice, but.

Danny Edwards (34:35.385)
Yeah

Orlando Wood (34:40.896)
I think it's a great thing. But then obviously you guys have lived through the digital transformation upheaval that publishing companies went through to become digital. And you guys have not just done that well, you guys have thrived in that ecosystem and you've kept alive the physical thing because people do like it. But that transition, what was that like? to give us a sort of

background or understanding of how your mindset had to shift to go from being a physical publication to an online, periodical.

Danny Edwards (35:20.175)
Yeah, and it was kind of gradual really. I I was there still when Shotstopnet launched.

I remember the party and like this, we've got a website and what are going to do now? And that was I think like 2001 or something. even from that point, for the next two, three years or so, the website was sort of a back, like it was a second free thing. We'd save stuff. If someone sent us a great commercial or great music video, we'd say, don't put that on the website, we'll save that for the DVD or the VHS or whatever it was because no one's really looking at the website these days. But then yeah, like we said before,

Orlando Wood (35:41.006)
Hmm.

Orlando Wood (35:49.462)
Mm, mm, mm.

Danny Edwards (35:55.496)
before YouTube comes in and just changes the game because that is accessible to everyone and if you know what you're looking for and you know there's so much stuff to upload. So you know we had to kind of gradually work out that you know the DVD and the VHS was just you know it was a defunct medium right. I mean it kind of on its last legs and it kind of staggered towards a certain point but then and then we just sort of moved over to the website. You know and I suppose the processes didn't really change.

Orlando Wood (35:58.51)
Mmm

Orlando Wood (36:12.942)
Yeah.

Danny Edwards (36:25.406)
But and I think B2B business to business

Publishing was slightly different maybe slightly inert from it because people were used to paying for you know and in some instances paying relatively a lot of money for the content that they received about that business So whereas consumer publishing, you know It was a kind of massive upheaval because you could get the stuff on the site very quickly You didn't need to buy the magazine, know, like and also you didn't want to buy the magazine and the website, you know Obviously no one really wants to pay for stuff online and consumer

Publishing struggled with that much more so b2b publishing we kind of still had a subscription model and you know We just had an extra offering we had the website as well as the magazine as well as the slightly lumbering DVD But then obviously, know as the website grew and as the you know, the internet became much more widely used and you know Broadband became much more prevalent, you know, our focus kind of shifted So instead of saving stuff for the DVD you would be like, well, let's kind of forget the DVD to a large degree We're just gonna sort of put stuff

Orlando Wood (37:09.492)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Danny Edwards (37:30.306)
as quickly as possible as soon as we get it in we want to write the story we want to get it out there and it was kind of first past the post of like get it out to people and you'll be the one that they might use to when social media came in share and links and all that sort of stuff so it was a kind of gradual process but you know the same process that everyone else had to go through but like I say business to business publishing kind of had a bit of an extra helping hand because lots of people were used to that that that model of that financial that financial model but then the magazine did sort of suffer

Orlando Wood (37:34.178)
Mm-mm.

Danny Edwards (38:00.126)
because we got to the point where I think probably 10 years ago or so that we stopped doing the magazine because it just didn't pay for itself. You're right as much as everyone loved it and enjoyed it and certainly like being in it and being on the cover and stuff no one was really prepared to advertise in it so you know we had I remember having we had a round table sort of thing yeah 10 or 12 years ago of like okay you know you all seem to love the magazine who put your hand up if you you're gonna advertise in the next issue and I kind of know one put their hand

Orlando Wood (38:06.542)
Mm.

Orlando Wood (38:17.923)
Yeah.

Orlando Wood (38:29.452)
Yeah. Yeah.

Danny Edwards (38:30.096)
up. So, you know, it was living sort of month to month. you know, the dwindling advertising paid for the following issue, which paid for the following issue.

Orlando Wood (38:38.126)
Cause at that point it was, it was monthly, right?

Danny Edwards (38:41.274)
Well, it was bi-monthly. It was bi-monthly. we had six, at one point we had seven issues, that was a weird random thing. six issues a year, so every two months. so one issue would pay for the next and the next and the next. And the Cannes issue was really the one that made the money. So now we're back to doing, so for a long while we didn't do any. And then we did the comic. our reintroduction to publishing in Cannes was doing comic books. So Chris, who you know, Chris Baker and some other people were involved.

Orlando Wood (38:43.0)
Bye, Monson,

Orlando Wood (38:49.58)
Yeah. And now you're at how many?

Orlando Wood (39:06.83)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Danny Edwards (39:11.198)
involved in doing that so we kind of reintroduced a physical publication which people really liked and it gave us a theme for the shots party that we do in Cannes and it kind of meant that we could kind of have something to give to people and then that slowly led us into doing the magazine so we would do a one-off special in Cannes which people really seemed to like and took all the copies that we had and now we're doing this year we're doing four issues

Orlando Wood (39:15.854)
Yeah.

Orlando Wood (39:28.76)
Yeah. Yeah.

Danny Edwards (39:34.652)
The differences and the difficulties is distribution. So what costs or it costs to create the magazine and to know Commission all the articles and stuff like that but the the real heavy cost was in distribution because Sending it to Australia and Japan and China and wherever else was what cost the real big bucks So what we kind of how we have to do it now is that we target a specific event so can or shots awards events or adfests we're doing and we take the magazine to that event and distribute it

Orlando Wood (39:34.765)
Right.

Orlando Wood (39:38.339)
Right.

Danny Edwards (40:04.616)
there. So there's a slight difference but yeah. it is really, you know, there's been a move back to it and not just for us I think because two years ago we did, when we started doing the magazines again, Neil, our art director and production manager, kind of found a printer really easily, know, basically pick up the phone, whoever you phone says yeah, yeah we're desperate for the business, yeah that's fine. Two years later they couldn't find a printer because lots of people were back printing magazines.

Orlando Wood (40:05.656)
Right, okay, that's interesting.

Orlando Wood (40:26.988)
Right, that's interesting. Yeah. Wow.

Danny Edwards (40:34.526)
and it was a much more lively sort of business, which is great, know, because that's the reason I got into working at Shots and wanted to work at Shots was because of the magazine, because the magazine is a nice thing and it is great to come out at the end of a kind of however long the period is and go, yeah, we made this, you we've done this and well done everyone. I mean, not often there's some mistakes in there, but yeah, you we rely on people as well for the images, you know, as you well know, like the images that we have on the magazines, are some of them are amazing

Orlando Wood (40:42.926)
Yeah, yeah.

Orlando Wood (40:50.018)
Yeah, yeah.

Orlando Wood (40:54.86)
Right? Yeah. Yeah.

Danny Edwards (41:04.446)
brilliantly shot and art directed and they look fantastic. We don't really pay for any of that. So we rely on the, I guess we rely on the egos of the people within the business to go, hey, look, you if you create, and obviously they're very creative people.

Orlando Wood (41:13.965)
Yeah.

Well, it used to be like the Thunderdome. You'd kind of you get a thing and you do your shoot and you'd be told we will pick the best one for the cover. And so everybody was trying to outdo each other and be like, I don't know what they're shooting or whatever else. And so you got these these creative companies and creative personnel going, holy shit, I got to really put into this. And so you would then get the best of everybody. Now, is it true? Are you doing your sort of putting each person that gets

Danny Edwards (41:25.781)
Yeah

Danny Edwards (41:29.403)
Yeah.

Danny Edwards (41:37.488)
Yeah.

Orlando Wood (41:45.93)
A cover? Is that right? Or was that just for the canned version?

Danny Edwards (41:48.132)
Well, so we do, we are able to do more than one cover. So we're lucky that these, some of these people do really pull out the stops and they do great images and they take their time and they employ photographers or they know photographers or whatever, might be photographers. And so they do some great stuff. And obviously when we get, when people do make that effort and people do really, you know, take the time and spend some money in some instances.

Orlando Wood (41:52.366)
Right. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Danny Edwards (42:10.78)
to do it, we want to kind of reward that if we can. Within reason, we can print a certain amount of covers. you know, as long as the print run allows us and the printer allows us to say, okay, you know, you can do say, whatever, three covers if you want, then we can try and do that. So if we're printing a thousand, we can do 400, 300, 300. Let's do my maths then for a second. So, you know, we can kind of mix it up and make sure that there's different covers. And it also is nice for people because, you know, the content inside it,

Orlando Wood (42:18.147)
Yeah.

Orlando Wood (42:25.432)
Mm-hmm.

Orlando Wood (42:30.126)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Danny Edwards (42:40.784)
same but people sometimes like to take each of the covers so that that really helps and that's good you know and it's and it's a great that you know we're really lucky and we appreciate that people do take the time to do that and we're in that process at the moment so we're going to press actually with two magazines this week and next or next week in the week after and we've already got a sort of you know a handful say five or six different images that you could say well that's a great cover we could use any of all of these and then we have that decision to make at some point but

Orlando Wood (42:42.104)
Yeah. Yeah.

Orlando Wood (43:07.523)
Yeah.

Danny Edwards (43:10.674)
Yeah.

Orlando Wood (43:10.754)
Yeah, and have you enjoyed the shift? mean, obviously, you know, so you you do the publication. You're still getting your your view resurrected that that's great. It has a place that's lovely in terms of the the website, though. It seems that you guys have not just you didn't just put out a website. It's changed a lot. You guys are also now. I think you and Jamie Madge are doing a podcast. You know, there's you. You started, you know, around about the 2015 2016.

Danny Edwards (43:17.5)
Mm.

Danny Edwards (43:34.106)
Yeah.

Orlando Wood (43:39.234)
going out and shooting people doing interviews and things like that. You I think like the, you know, on my radar segments and stuff like that, you guys were quite clever about not just, you know, becoming a digital publication, but actually leaning into the, the skills and opportunities of the new medium and creating your own content.

Danny Edwards (43:47.792)
Mm-hmm.

Orlando Wood (44:03.298)
Has that been fun? You know, it seems that you guys were doing that out of inspiration and interest rather than necessity or market forces.

Danny Edwards (44:12.944)
Yeah, I mean, but that's what it all is about. Basically, I think for all of us on the editorial team, or not even just on the editorial team, advertising is full of interesting people. The reason I've stayed in this job for so long is certainly not for the salary, but because you get to meet and talk to and kind of hear from and try and understand loads of really interesting people that do interesting things and not just in advertising. Advertising is brilliant, kind of having people in it like you in comic books and other people do loads of different things that you can

Orlando Wood (44:35.502)
Mm.

Orlando Wood (44:39.598)
Yeah. Yeah.

Danny Edwards (44:42.878)
You know they're interesting as an advertising person But actually they're making a movie or writing a book or making comic books or designing shoes or whatever it might be So that's really interesting. We want to kind of talk to as many of those people as possible So we're lucky editorially as long as it's got some through line to advertising or the person works in advertising We're kind of open to talk about creativity That's what shots is about creativity And so the website is a reflection of that and the magazine is a reflection of that and then we've got out of the box Which is the event we've started doing in the last few years live events

Orlando Wood (44:48.46)
Yeah. Yeah.

Orlando Wood (45:03.894)
Yeah. Yeah.

Danny Edwards (45:12.918)
which is essentially the kind of pages of shots on the stage. So talks and presentations and panel discussions about topics and creative endeavors and things like that. Yeah, you know, which has gone really well, and especially in the States, it's been really well received. So we'll be there in April doing one in LA, the third one, I think, that we've done, you know, and it's really great. And we get lots of pictures from people wanting to be involved and kind of pitching ideas and discussions. you know, advertising is a really, it's a pool that is full of

of interesting, unusual and kind of creative people. And it's great that we get to kind of reflect that at times. And so we try and do it as much as possible. And we try and do it globally. mean, we're all based in the UK. Well, not all of us, most of us are based in the UK, but we are trying, there has been a slight sort of shift in management and they're keen to have a slightly broader editorial pool. So the States is probably our biggest market.

Orlando Wood (45:44.782)
Mm. Mm.

Orlando Wood (45:49.848)
Mm.

Orlando Wood (45:54.541)
Yeah.

Orlando Wood (46:08.056)
Mm-hmm.

Danny Edwards (46:12.638)
it alongside the UK so we want to kind of solidify that as well as be able to talk to people in Asia and know mainland Europe and stuff so you know it's a continual sort of evolution but yeah at the heart of it is just the people and the kind of work and the kind of creative outlook that everyone seems to have which is great.

Orlando Wood (46:18.926)
Mm. Mm.

Orlando Wood (46:29.294)
Mm-hmm.

Orlando Wood (46:33.294)
Yeah, because that dovetails very nicely into what I was wanting to talk about next, which was the shots awards. Obviously, it's a you know, it's it's been running for must be what 12 to 15 years now.

Danny Edwards (46:40.89)
Mm-hmm.

Danny Edwards (46:47.292)
Yeah, yeah, good point. think it was about 2012, I think was the first one we did maybe.

Orlando Wood (46:51.054)
2012. Right. Yeah. So 14 to 15 years. You know, it started. It was very kind of, you were you were international in as much as you would. You did a unique thing where you would pick out the particular offices of a production company globally that were that were doing quite well rather than a sort of blanket of the brand. So in that way, you were quite forward about being international. But obviously, you know, it was it was in me a kind of focus.

Danny Edwards (47:07.342)
Yeah.

Orlando Wood (47:19.978)
Now you guys have taken the step, and I think you're very unique in this, doing shots towards America, shots towards Europe or EMEA, and then Asia. Talk about the development of that and what made you feel that that was something that was a sensible next step to take. And then I'd love to talk about what differences you see between those markets.

Danny Edwards (47:43.6)
Yeah, I mean, so initially it was just a world, like a global worldwide award. So we started it, I think, 2012 and everyone, you know, it started off, you know, it's still small compared to a lot of awards, but you know, it started off very small and then gradually has grown over the years. But we got to a point where having having a global sort of entry thing was just a bit too much. Like we didn't have the scope, we didn't have the people. And also it felt like, you know, understandably, some people from

smaller, what you might say, a smaller kind of advertising territories were thinking, well, we're not going to enter that because the UK and the US are probably just going to dominate everything and therefore, you know, we're not, there's no point in entering because we just won't win. And also, you know, there were nuances of, you know, a Japanese ad might not play or be understood as well over here by, you know, a UK jury as it would be by a Japanese jury or a sort of a jury from that part of the world. So, you know, we kind of quickly realised that actually splitting them

So initially I think it was we had EMEA and then the kind of rest of the world and then and then we said actually we're gonna do the Americas so North and South America and then AIPAC is the is the other one so so yeah you know it was kind of a necessity of like okay you know we can't really physically get all that entries and all those people and all that sort of work in one place and judge it it's not we're not big enough to kind of do a global award ceremony in the sense that we can't arrange it and we don't have the

of capabilities at the moment.

So we split it out into three and we have yet the judges come from that particular region so they have a kind of overview of you know that obviously there's still cultural differences because those places and those EMEA and APAC and stuff are still huge regions but there's a sort of a bit more understanding and we make sure we have a good spread of jurors and a good spread of people and a good spread of kind of disciplines and stuff on the juries and it makes for interesting it's hard work because we're kind of constantly working on an award show so you know they kind of

Orlando Wood (49:38.702)
Mm.

Orlando Wood (49:43.362)
Yeah. Yeah, the moment you're done with one, there's another one coming up.

Danny Edwards (49:45.694)
overlap across the years.

Yeah, yeah, well even before you're done with one, you're thinking about the next one and obviously then with the out of the box stuff as well, you know, the events which we do currently only do in London and LA, hopefully that for the moment that will remain the same. I don't want to give anyone any ideas because we haven't got time or the sort of people to do it anywhere else. But yeah, so you know, that adds another layer of, you know, it adds a layer of complexity, but adds a layer of interest because, you get to meet and talk to and hear from great people and then those people sometimes are judges or sometimes the judge

Orlando Wood (49:51.414)
Yeah. Yeah.

Orlando Wood (50:03.234)
Right.

Orlando Wood (50:16.494)
Mm.

Danny Edwards (50:18.11)
judges sort of say, we've got a great idea for a presentation out of the box. So they kind of, you know, they kind of propagate each other. But that was essentially how it worked. let's not beat around the bush. It was also a revenue stream, right? From a business perspective, you know, people, the people at the top of the tree are going, well, you know, seems like awards are quite a kind of thing that people are interested in and advertising is sort of renowned for its awards. So, you know, and Shots had a foothold in that already. So we didn't just suddenly launch

Orlando Wood (50:20.824)
Mmm.

Orlando Wood (50:31.758)
Yeah, of course.

Danny Edwards (50:48.05)
awards out of nowhere. People knew the Shots brand, trusted hopefully the Shots brand and what it stood for, you know the things that it sort of promoted so we kind of had a bit of a head start with that I think.

Orlando Wood (50:49.196)
Yeah.

Orlando Wood (51:00.846)
Yeah, do you think the different kinds of things get awarded at shots versus a can, a one club, a Cleo's? Do you think you guys that your editorial eye in the magazine and the website, do you think that ripples through to the awards or do you think the awards kind of equals everything out?

Danny Edwards (51:21.649)
I did not.

I think there's sometimes, mean look, top line probably there's not massively dissimilar stuff because the best work kind of bubbles to the surface, right? So wherever that's from in the world and whatever award show that is, if it's entered, then it kind of bubbles to the top because it's really good and rightly so. Often we do get kind of maybe entries that you wouldn't see, well maybe they are and can, we just don't see them because they're not awarded, but there's stuff that comes through to us that really grouts.

Sort of the jury's gravitate towards or you know often especially if they haven't seen it So there was you know, there's been things that from from in the past Norway and Sweden Scandinavia and places that you know that Those the jury haven't necessarily seen work from that area and when they see it for the first time they're like, oh my god I didn't know this existed and it's fantastic and I am really and I really you know We love it and we want to give it whatever it might be whatever prize it might be which I think is great, know because that you know, obviously you want the best work to win, but sometimes

Orlando Wood (52:12.002)
Yeah. Yeah.

Danny Edwards (52:23.658)
I think there is not just in advertising but in all awards that there's a kind of snowball effect of that jury and that award show gave that a Gold so probably that means it's really good So we'll we probably should give it a go and then it just sort of rolls on and on You know, sometimes that's absolutely right because that piece of work is amazing But I think you know, we like it when there are things that come through that that that you know You might not have seen before that might not have won before because it sort of gives it a little bit more of a unique

Orlando Wood (52:37.186)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Danny Edwards (52:52.808)
a unique sort of patina.

Orlando Wood (52:53.974)
Mm hmm. And what what differences do you see between the three territories that you cover? mean, do you are you surprised at the that there are big differences or are you surprised that generally trends seem to be rippled through in in all territories? What's your feeling when you when you watch back what gets awarded in, you know, APAC versus EMEA versus, you know?

Danny Edwards (53:21.828)
Yeah, I mean, I suppose, you know, the EMEA Awards and the Americas Awards are relatively similar in trends and output and the kind of stuff that you see. Obviously, there's, you know, subtle differences or sometimes big differences, you know, between them. you know, generally speaking, there's not that many surprises is the APAC Awards. And I suppose because, you know, I'm not from that culture and most of us in the the Shots editorial team aren't from that culture. So you'll see stuff that is, you know, I don't really know what that is about or what that means. But it is

amazing. Obviously some of the products you don't really know and some of their cultural differences and nuances are things that we wouldn't even think of. I some of the stuff from Thailand is just, and I'd say crazy, but it is just a visual assault on your senses and you're just like, don't know what this is about. I think people are a bit more used to that now, so it's not quite as surprising. I remember years ago in Cannes, actually,

Orlando Wood (54:08.055)
You

Yeah

Orlando Wood (54:18.306)
Yeah.

Danny Edwards (54:21.842)
I can't remember what year it was, probably mid 2000s or something, when an ad from Thailand, I think it was Thailand or Japan, a kind gold lion. But it was kind of booed when it went up, because it was so out there, it was so unusual, and it was so different from things that think most of the audience were used to. They just didn't get it.

Orlando Wood (54:36.266)
Mm. Mm.

Orlando Wood (54:41.944)
Yeah. Yeah.

Danny Edwards (54:43.022)
really and they said they were kind of quite harshly critical towards it because it was nothing nothing that sort of Existed on their radar up to that point. I think that you know again back to the point we talked about of you know, the YouTube and just everyone has access to anything at any given time I think those sort of things have broken down slightly. So you'll never it's harder to be surprised because you know, we're kind of all used to seeing things from different parts of the world and with different cultural sensibilities Certainly more than we were, know

Orlando Wood (54:51.618)
Yeah.

Danny Edwards (55:12.956)
years ago or something.

Orlando Wood (55:15.286)
Are you guys tapping into the creator economy at all? mean, I know that that, you know, some, some of those creators are, are transitioning and getting ad work. And sometimes it's just brands paying them to inject themselves almost like product placement and what they do that area where creators and brands overlap. Is that a place that shots is looking at or, or interested in, in showcasing?

Danny Edwards (55:46.236)
It's funny you should say actually, I had a drink with a PR person yesterday after work who was sort of saying that Shots needs to be a bit more involved in this and he was kind of telling me some of the people and some of the places and trying to help out which is great. I suppose we have been bit lax in that, in part as I said to him as well, it's because that work, those commercials aren't generally that...

great I would say. It's like celebrity commercials, essentially they're celebrities, guess they're on whatever, social media celebrities. Sometimes those ads aren't great because it's just essentially the celebrity guy, hey, buy this thing, or you know me from whatever and I'm now representing this brand. Often that is the sort of stuff we get sent and it's not always that great. Again, from a filmmaking point, I guess in the social media world you kind of have to take

Orlando Wood (56:12.15)
Mm. Mm. Mm.

Orlando Wood (56:24.183)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Orlando Wood (56:37.07)
Mmm.

Danny Edwards (56:41.95)
the filmmaking expertise bit because that's not what it's about. It is about the idea, much more than it is about brilliant expensive cameras and swooping shots and stuff like that. So you kind of have to sort of distance yourself from that slightly. But yeah, it is an area that we probably should be more involved in because it's not new, let's be honest. mean, social media and social media sort of influence have been around for a while. So we just don't see that much.

Orlando Wood (56:43.822)
Mm.

Yeah.

Orlando Wood (56:52.216)
Yeah.

Orlando Wood (57:09.219)
Yeah.

Danny Edwards (57:12.33)
Great content that comes from yeah that sort of impresses us I suppose as much as anything, but but maybe we're not looking hard enough There's always that and maybe you know There's a different angle to get into it rather than just you know I guess you kind of again is that like okay? Well, you can't judge that content by the same yardstick as you judge You know Jonathan Glazer's new commercial for whatever it might be because they're just gonna be completely yeah, they're gonna be completely different and understandably so

Orlando Wood (57:12.622)
that surprises you. Yeah.

Orlando Wood (57:31.917)
Yeah.

Well, yeah.

Orlando Wood (57:38.71)
Although I would love it if Jonathan Glaser had an Instagram account or a TikTok account and just started putting shit out. Branded or not branded, I will be a follower if that ever happens. Good Lord.

Danny Edwards (57:44.027)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah Yeah, yeah, he's gonna revolutionize social media I mean that'll be the death knell for the current social media influencers if that's the bar they've got to

Orlando Wood (57:59.756)
Yeah. If we could basically get the guys who had those great DVDs, Michelle Gondry, Chris Cunningham, Jonathan Glazer, Spike Jones, if we could just get them all on social to just show us how it could be done, in their crazy minds. yeah, they were the, they were the great, I mean, to me, they were one of the first things that went viral. It's like, you know, you know, but, but it was always passed around like, like the rubber Johnny video.

Danny Edwards (58:06.33)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, I remember those DVDs. What are they called? That was called like directors something or was it? They were great. Yeah

Danny Edwards (58:23.292)
Yeah.

Orlando Wood (58:28.736)
I remember rubber Johnny being passed around the production department in at widen and it coming to me because I was the editor. So it came to me and it was like to get your hands on the rubber Johnny video was like, was a, a, a unique and rare thing. And, and those DVDs were very similar. It was like, check this out. Like the music videos you're going to watch here are going to blow your mind and you know, yeah.

Danny Edwards (58:29.327)
Yeah, go ahead.

Danny Edwards (58:33.605)
Yeah.

Danny Edwards (58:43.739)
here.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Danny Edwards (58:51.835)
Yeah.

Yeah, well that's true. mean, I think that like we saying before, there is less the element of surprise these days because people have kind of seen everything. I remember, I can't remember what year it was now, Robbie Williams's Rock DJ video. So I was relatively low down in the shots sort of hierarchy and there was in the old office a viewing room where he'd have DVDs and pneumatic tapes and stuff that everyone would watch stuff on. And there was a scream coming from the viewing room where someone had just watched this Rock DJ video.

Orlando Wood (59:01.548)
Yeah.

Orlando Wood (59:08.517)
yeah.

Orlando Wood (59:15.0)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Danny Edwards (59:24.254)
where he sort of peels his skin off and stuff and throws it around his head. And you know, the whole office just comes running in.

Orlando Wood (59:26.636)
Yeah, yeah, which was only you could. Yeah, you could. You could only watch it in Europe. Europe would air that version and in the UK they wouldn't even air it.

Danny Edwards (59:34.748)
Yeah, Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, know, like those sort of things, you know, it doesn't have to occasionally you do you get a massive great ad and everyone's like, you got to watch this or, you know, forward it on, know, forwarding on the sort of internal communication system, whatever it might be. But yeah, that whole that's in interviewing room and shouting and screaming of like, everyone come and watch this. It's sort of it's less of a thing now, obviously. But yeah, those those those videos, those director videos were fantastic because yeah, that sort of stuff. mean, don't know where Chris Cunningham is sort of what he does now. We haven't heard from him for some time, but he was

Orlando Wood (59:50.157)
Yeah.

Orlando Wood (59:57.069)
Yeah.

Orlando Wood (01:00:07.274)
I, I, yeah. I mean, listen, he's, mean, just what a genius. mean, I'm sure money just runs away from him. I can't imagine he did a lot of profitable work, but my God, the stuff he did was great. I just realized you brought up you Maddox. You and I are both dressed like you Maddox, the gray with the white. Yeah.

Danny Edwards (01:00:07.555)
a revolutionary

Danny Edwards (01:00:15.343)
Yeah.

Yeah. I know.

Danny Edwards (01:00:26.96)
Yeah, I guess I didn't want to say it's like we got the memo of like you got to wear a white t-shirt and a grey top.

Orlando Wood (01:00:34.518)
I mean, but do you miss those days? mean, what, you know, in terms of your job, do you miss that kind of going into the dark room and you, mats and VHS is a DVDs are piled up and that's how you're doing it versus just clicking and something's coming across the street. Have we lost something? Do you, do you feel like your job's the same? Do you feel like it's better? Cause you're subjected to more stuff or like, what do you think?

Danny Edwards (01:00:52.924)
you

Danny Edwards (01:00:57.82)
Well, it's that thing. mean, yeah, essentially it's the same. Essentially, you know, the role is the same. You're kind of sent a lot of stuff and you watch it and you make a decision one way or the other whether you think it should, you know, be put on shots or not. The process obviously is different because, you know, back then we got maybe, I don't know, 100, 150 different commercials in a month that we would watch. And now it's like three, four, 500, and then not just 60. You know, if you've got a 90 second commercial back then, you're like, wow, this is, you know, I've got to spend all 90 seconds watching this.

Orlando Wood (01:01:18.638)
Mmm.

Yeah.

Danny Edwards (01:01:27.794)
you can get like a 25 minute documentary or a 45 minute short film, which is fine because some of them are great, but you know some of them aren't and they've all got to be watched. it's you know that part of the job is harder simply because there's just that much more stuff and you know it takes a lot more time to view it and to decide whether it's something you know because it's not just me viewing it, it's Jamie viewing it and Amy and Carol and Dan and stuff. you know there's a whole process and it takes a bit more time. So yeah I like I'm quite happy when I click

Orlando Wood (01:01:30.678)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Orlando Wood (01:01:41.635)
Mm.

Orlando Wood (01:01:48.034)
Mm. Mm-hmm.

Orlando Wood (01:01:52.974)
Mm.

Danny Edwards (01:01:57.694)
on the link and it's like, oh yep, 30 seconds, that's good. I can decide fairly quickly whether this is good, bad or indifferent. But obviously sometimes you'll get a short film that is whatever, 25 minutes long or a short branded documentary and before you know it. And like I said before, the key is do I actually want to watch it? Because sometimes I'll forget that I'm watching it for work and I'm actually just engrossed in whatever the story is and I'm watching it because I want to finish it and find out what happened or what the end.

Orlando Wood (01:02:09.912)
Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Orlando Wood (01:02:17.07)
Mmm.

Orlando Wood (01:02:23.127)
Yeah.

Danny Edwards (01:02:27.644)
of the film is and that's when you know okay I've forgotten that I'm watching this work and I've got to be in a meeting in five minutes so that's a definite yes. So yeah ultimately it's not really changed but the process well the process has changed but the kind of fundamentals of what we do it is the same.

Orlando Wood (01:02:27.682)
Yeah.

Orlando Wood (01:02:34.883)
Hmm.

Orlando Wood (01:02:44.098)
Yeah. Yeah. Just one more question just about the creators thing was, do you think that with creators now, you know, obviously these AI tools, these gen AI tools off the shelf mimic broadly what post-production was able to do 10 years ago. And, and, you know, and, and obviously there's a, there's a quality gap.

But now these creators who have only been able to do really in camera stuff that maybe their skill level has raised up in some respects, but certainly not to the level of post production. Do you think that you might be seeing more that crosses your desk from the creator economy because they'll have access to these tools again? The production pipeline might be fairly usual, but surely their ambition has

Danny Edwards (01:03:29.093)
Yeah, maybe.

Orlando Wood (01:03:37.1)
more powerful tools to support it now.

Danny Edwards (01:03:41.178)
Yeah, possibly. mean, look, it's that thing of, you know, just because you can doesn't mean you should. So having access to, you know, AI and, know, whatever tools are available doesn't mean doesn't make it necessarily good, you know, you know, because there's loads of great films that are just a camera and, you know, and a person or a kind of a scene or whatever it might be. There doesn't need to be any great technological input into it as long as it's kind of gripping and dramatic or funny or whatever it might be. Obviously having

Orlando Wood (01:03:54.552)
Yeah. Yeah.

Danny Edwards (01:04:11.102)
mad or unusual or clever or kind of just realistic imagery within that that people can react to or you know kind of you know use to whatever sort of example they want to use then that might be great but I think ultimately it's down to is it something I'm going to find interesting is it something that's going to be you know engrossing or yeah going to make me laugh or cry or whatever it might be and I guess if those things can help do that then great but you know I don't think we haven't seen a huge

huge amount of great social media content so far and they've still got cameras that they didn't have 10 years ago or 15 years ago that they didn't have access to and editing equipment they didn't have access to and sound recording equipment. it's the nature I guess of that platform. It's a different platform. Like I said, maybe it's us that's got a kind of move slightly to understand what that is and how it's used and what is good in that scenario because we're still over here slightly of like,

Orlando Wood (01:04:48.536)
Yeah. Yeah.

Danny Edwards (01:05:10.962)
great imagery, it's got to be brilliant camera work and a fantastic concept and that's what makes a great shots commercial. You know, it is a different platform and maybe it's us that's kind of got to sort of reset our thinking and kind of understand that actually the yardstick we judge the other stuff by isn't going to be the same that we judge this one by.

Orlando Wood (01:05:28.174)
Yeah.

Or maybe not, you know, I mean, I think, you know, it's, it's possible that that, you know, that gets better or different and it just never quite crosses the Rubicon. well, listen, Danny, thank you so much for, for giving us all this time and for talking to about it. To me, shots is still the gold standard of what, know, what I look to, to, to tell me what to think about modern, you know, production and, and great creative stuff.

Danny Edwards (01:05:40.772)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Danny Edwards (01:05:58.392)
It's been great mate, thank you. I really appreciate you asking me and I hope at least some of what I said made sense.

Orlando Wood (01:06:02.094)
Of course. It made tons of sense. Now, just quickly before you go, you've got some stuff coming up. You've got Shots Awards Americas coming up. That's happening in April. Do want to just give us a quick plug for that and make sure that people get their tickets? We'll put the ticket ordering in the show notes.

Danny Edwards (01:06:11.868)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

Yeah, so we got the Shots Awards, well before we got the Shots out of the box in LA coming up on, I want to say April the 22nd, I think it is. I think that's the Wednesday the 22nd. So yeah, that's got lots of, you know, presentations, panel discussions, stuff about AI, obviously, and people talking about projects they've done. So that's the and then the following evening, we've got the Shots Awards in LA as well, which is yeah, the sort of culmination.

of the shots towards the Americas. So yeah, lots of people, lots of drink, of sort of hopefully partying and trophies being given out and hopefully a good time.

Orlando Wood (01:06:59.362)
Yeah, lots of drink because of course you are still a British company.

Danny Edwards (01:07:03.054)
Absolutely. I mean, you know, if you're not having a drink what you're doing really so, you know, yeah We were always told that the Americans weren't quite as weren't quite as you know They're not big as big drinkers as us which I guess broadly is kind of true, but they have a good time Let me tell you they they don't mind a drink or two. Yeah

Orlando Wood (01:07:06.71)
Yeah, exactly right.

Orlando Wood (01:07:15.234)
Yeah. I bet they will. That's the wonderful thing. It's cross-country cultural communication. We appreciate you coming over and bringing your culture with you. I think that's fabulous. I'm really looking forward to it. I'm going to be there. We'll put the ability to buy tickets in the show notes.

Danny Edwards (01:07:27.116)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Danny Edwards (01:07:37.603)
Fantastic. Brilliant, thank you. Thank you, I really appreciate it. It's great to talk to you all, but listen to a few of these over the last few months. They're brilliant, you've done a great job, so keep it up.

Orlando Wood (01:07:46.402)
Thanks, man. Thank you so much, man. It's been a pleasure to have you on. And, you know, this is this is the fun part for me getting to talk to people I love like you as it's such a treat. So thanks so much, man. Really appreciate it.

Danny Edwards (01:07:54.8)
Good. Yeah, great. Yeah. No problem. Take care.

Orlando Wood (01:08:01.807)
Bye bye.