Behind Reality TV’s Biggest Hits

Technically Creative by KoobrikLabs Podcast Transcript

Title: Behind Reality TV’s Biggest Hits: Jeff Jenkins on Paris Hilton, Kim Kardashian, and Storytelling That Sells

Host: Orlando Wood Guest: Jeff Jenkins

Orlando Wood (00:06)

thank you so much for, doing this. I’m actually, I’m quite nervous

cause I’m, I’m a big fan of, so many of the things that you’ve made.

I’ve, obviously was a huge fan of, simple life and I’ve avidly watched

all of the keeping up with the Kardashians and now as well secret

lives of Mormon wives, which I can’t get enough of. I’m deep into

season two. and love it.

Jeff Jenkins (00:24)

It’s very nice to see you and I’m very happy to be here and connect

with you and you look great and you sound great.

Orlando Wood (00:33)

Thank you very much, so do you. I love the haircut and you’re looking

very svelte.

Jeff Jenkins (00:36)

Thank you. Thank you.

Orlando Wood (00:39)

I’m so excited to talk to you you’ve got Secret Lives of Mormon Wives

out right now on Hulu. That’s just been streamed a billion times,

which is a huge achievement. And you’ve got lots of things kind of

going and coming out. You’ve got a Tiffany Haddish sort of show going

on over board for love with Alex Cooper.

It feels like you’re really hitting a stride. mean, I know you started

your company just before COVID and that must’ve been a bit of a kick

to the stomach. ⁓

Jeff Jenkins (01:04)

It was,

it was Netflix.

Orlando Wood (01:07)

God, that’s right. I also

binged on Orthodox life.

Jeff Jenkins (01:10)

Yeah, that was a good

Orlando Wood (01:11)

You’ve got so many good deep cuts that I even forgot some for this

meeting.

Jeff Jenkins (01:12)

my friend.

Yeah, that’s okay. But yeah, then COVID just, you know, took

everything and everyone off a cliff. And so it was almost like post

COVID, it was almost like starting over, rebuild the company.Yeah, that’s okay. But yeah, then COVID just, you know, took

everything and everyone off a cliff. And so it was almost like post

COVID, it was almost like starting over, rebuild the company.

Orlando Wood (01:29)

Yeah.

Jeff Jenkins (01:32)

again. So we, to your point, yes, we’ve been building and now it’s

hitting a nice stride and hopefully we can continue that, you know,

serving buyers needs and making the audiences happy.

Orlando Wood (01:32)

Yeah.

That’s great.

Yeah, well, great. Yeah, it’s it occurred to me just looking at, know,

what you’ve worked on. And obviously you were you started a Boone and

Murray, which, you know, is in the fabric of reality. Television is

kind of ground zero. You know, it’s it’s the real world. mean, it’s

it’s so many of the the the shows that created the format that really

kind of got people kind of going. You know, it occurred to me kind of,

you know, looking at

you know, what you’ve done with especially, you know, a, simple life

and then keeping up with the Kardashians. You, know, a, they both

redefine the form. mean, single simple life kind of really kind of

created, you know, um, everything is born of that’s the Plymouth rock,

you know, it’s everything is sort of born of that. Um, but it occurs

to me in both instances, you really

Jeff Jenkins (02:33)

Yeah.

Orlando Wood (02:37)

Those two projects kind of changed the very nature of fame in their

respective eras. The notion that now it’s a cliche, but sort of being

famous for famous sake is one of the things that, sorry, A Simple Life

was kind of, that people sort of talked about. And then with the

keeping up with the Kardashians, saw people, them turning fame into

real industry for themselves, using social media, starting marketing.

marketing teams themselves, ⁓ supporting brands. And now they’ve kind

of led that and you see so many more celebrities across the board. It

was really a dirty word to be putting your face towards brands before

they came across. Yeah, and I’m not sure entirely what my question is,

but it occurs to me that those two things so changed the nature of

fame and what we think about as fame. Were you aware of that at the

time? Were you just a…an over-aught spectator like the rest of us on some level? What’s your

feeling about that?

Jeff Jenkins (03:34)

I definitely was not aware of the kind of seismic change that those

two shows, The Simple Life and Keeping Up with the Kardashians, were

gonna represent when we all look back. When we started The Simple

Life, in fact, I think for the entire run of Simple Life, social media

didn’t really exist.

and being able to be an influencer with millions of followers and get

brand deals. None of that existed. I was just, I was chatting with a

gal from the New York Times yesterday and she asked me a similar

question, a similar topic. And I shared with her, I remember walking

into Kris Jenner’s home, the classic, the one that was on the TV show

with the black and white tile.

which is for sale right now for 14 million. And, right? I remember

walking in and she was on her phone and she was like, I just joined

this app, Instagram, it’s so fun, you gotta do it. And I was like,

what? I don’t wanna fucking do another goddamn fucking social media

thing, I hate Facebook. So yeah, they really, think, know, Paris had

an eye.

Orlando Wood (04:30)

I should go view it.

you

Jeff Jenkins (04:53)

to branding herself. you read…

Orlando Wood (04:54)

Yeah.

Jeff Jenkins (04:56)

her memoir, her most recent memoir, she really wanted to escape what

was happening to her as a young teenager and take control of her life,

take control of her destiny. And the way to do that was to have money,

right? So she knew what she wanted to do. Same, in my opinion, the

same is with Kris Jenner and Kim Kardashian. They knew what they

wanted to do to somehow get into this

Orlando Wood (05:05)

Yeah.

Mm.

Mm.Jeff Jenkins (05:25)

particular lane and figure out how to monetize it. So I honestly think

the three of them are really genius, truly genius.

Orlando Wood (05:27)

Mm.

Mmm.

Jeff Jenkins (05:35)

and trailblazers, the three of them. think, you know, don’t kill me,

Courtney and Chloe and, I think everybody else besides Kim and Kris

Jenner and that family, they got lucky. They’re riding the wave of Kim

and Kris putting their heads together and figuring it out and figuring

out how to do it and really building that example for everyone else.

They’re the, I think those three, especially Paris Hilton and Kim

Kardashian and maybe,

Orlando Wood (05:58)

Mm.

Jeff Jenkins (06:04)

to a lesser extent, Kris Jenner, they are the OG influencers. They’re

the original. Talk about Plymouth Rock. They are the original

influencers.

Orlando Wood (06:07)

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, it’s interesting. mean, especially as you know, for Paris, know,

the so much has been contextualized since, you know, with her talking

about her experience at the the boarding school. Also, she’s she’s

really only just now kind of made it clear that the person the persona

she was putting on was a on on the one hand, a bit of a performance,

you know, which honestly moves single a simple life. I keep saying

single.

simple life into almost performance art. And I think that, but we

didn’t know. I mean, we weren’t participants in the understanding that

that was a character. And I think that now realizing that it makes

what she did even more impressive and what you all did together even

more impressive.

Jeff Jenkins (06:44)

Yeah.

I think you’re ⁓ really shrewd to recognize that and verbalize that.

Looking back after you read that memoir and looking back and seeing, ⁓

wow, she created that ⁓ or exaggerated to a large extent a small

thread that is a genuine thread of her personality, exaggerated that

one thread.I think you’re ⁓ really shrewd to recognize that and verbalize that.

Looking back after you read that memoir and looking back and seeing, ⁓

wow, she created that ⁓ or exaggerated to a large extent a small

thread that is a genuine thread of her personality, exaggerated that

one thread.

Orlando Wood (07:13)

Yeah. Yeah.

Hmm.

Jeff Jenkins (07:27)

genius. It’s pretty genius. And I think she just has a just she and

Kim are very similar in that way. They have an innate sense of which

way to move left, right, forward, backward. It’s like

Orlando Wood (07:28)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Jeff Jenkins (07:44)

It’s in their DNA, it’s in their blood. It’s an instinctual

understanding of what to do, how and when. I don’t think it’s

something you can necessarily learn or be taught. And frankly, they

both never stop working. Never stop working. They are, you know, I

remember a long time ago listening to Fran Lebowitz being interviewed

about Andy Warhol and people calling Andy

Orlando Wood (08:02)

Yeah.

Jeff Jenkins (08:12)

Warhol as they called Paris and Kim to a lesser extent, you know, just

a dumb dumb, just a dumb dumb who got lucky. And Fran Lebowitz was

like, ⁓ no, you don’t fall to the top of a mountain. You don’t fall to

the top of a mountain. You fucking climb it. And you have great

respect for both of them. It’s fascinating.

Orlando Wood (08:18)

Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, mean, you know, obviously they were both, you know, very much

defining, you know, you you went into Buna Murray and then you were

then you ran it. What did you what did you learn back then from Buna

Murray? mean, because they had you know, they were doing so much, but

obviously these were were once again game changers. You know, what did

you kind of learn of Buna Murray and how is how has reality TV changed

since then?Yeah, mean, you know, obviously they were both, you know, very much

defining, you know, you you went into Buna Murray and then you were

then you ran it. What did you what did you learn back then from Buna

Murray? mean, because they had you know, they were doing so much, but

obviously these were were once again game changers. You know, what did

you kind of learn of Buna Murray and how is how has reality TV changed

since then?

Jeff Jenkins (08:54)

Yeah.

I think, you know, I started at Buna Murray in 1998 and I was there

for 20 years. The first decade, I was in the story department, in the

directing department. I became a show runner. And so I really learned

the trade, the craft, almost like learning to be a plumber or an

electrician. I’d learned the craft of reality television in a very

pure documentary way. At that time,

there was no hand of the producer. Everything was very documentary.

You tick the domino, cross your fingers and hope you get some content.

The second decade I was there, after one of the founding partners,

Mary Alice Bunum, my wonderful mentor in story, passed away from

breast cancer. And I kind of tried to step up and

fill some of that void. And that was right around the time we were,

remember finishing directing a season of The Real World, this very

pure documentary, and starting like the next day on season one of The

Simple Life. And Simple Life was, you know, this is gonna be a half

hour comedy. It’s a half hour comedy. We have to get comedy. And so

some of it,

Orlando Wood (10:11)

Mm-hmm.

Jeff Jenkins (10:20)

was pure documentary, but that was the first time where creatively the

producers, we started to step in a little bit and help steer things.

Whether that means, okay, let’s create this fan box for Paris and

Nicole to play in. Or let’s…

Orlando Wood (10:42)

Mm-hmm.

Jeff Jenkins (10:44)

give Paris and Nicole one piece of direction. Like your goal in this

sandbox is X. Give them somewhere to start from and somewhere to

strive to reach. So we started stepping in and steering things a

little bit. And that for me Orlando, that change.

from a serious or a purist documentary to a comedy, a glamorous

celebrity comedy where we could steer it a little bit more. For me,

that was finding my personal, what do you call it, sweet spot.

Orlando Wood (11:10)

Yeah.Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Jeff Jenkins (11:24)

because I had wanted originally in the early 90s, I had wanted to be a

feature film comedy writer, director, producer, and I’d made a movie

and it played at Slamdance and it won awards around the world. And

unlike Kaylee’s dad, I didn’t make a penny. So I was like, okay, this

is not gonna be cute if I turn 30 who broke. ⁓

Orlando Wood (11:44)

Right.

Yeah. Yeah.

Jeff Jenkins (11:52)

So I started working in reality, but I was always keeping in mind even

throughout that first decade, I’m just gonna take all this experience

and still turn it into a movie career. When simply, without temporary,

totally.

Orlando Wood (12:03)

So it felt temporary to you. You kind of went, okay, this is gonna be

a proving ground. I’m gonna learn some skills. I’m gonna figure out

what transfers, but that’s where I’m gonna be. Fascinating.

Jeff Jenkins (12:12)

Exactly, that first

decade was just ⁓ a proving ground, ⁓ just writing screenplays. was

still, I do read throughs at my home and blah, blah, blah. But when

Simple Life happened, I was like, wait a minute, I know I wanna make

comedy feature films, but I’m making a comedy television show for a

major network, Fox.

and I’m making a living, and these girls are really fucking fun, I’m

like, I’m just gonna stay right in this lane. So that’s where I

stayed. And ironically, people don’t remember keeping up with the

Kardashians, season one, and I think season two, I’d have to check. It

was a half hour comedy. And we finished season five.

Orlando Wood (12:43)

Yeah.

bright.

Jeff Jenkins (13:02)

The final episode of The Simple Life on a Friday had the weekend off.

Monday, we started prep on Keeping Up with the Kardashians and the

family came into my office to have our first in-person creative

meeting. And it was a happy,The final episode of The Simple Life on a Friday had the weekend off.

Monday, we started prep on Keeping Up with the Kardashians and the

family came into my office to have our first in-person creative

meeting. And it was a happy,

Orlando Wood (13:20)

Wow. Cause it’s funny in my

head, they’re so separate and keeping up with the Kardashians seems

like, you know, like the difference between watching a seventies movie

and an eighties movie. They seem so divorced stylistically that I

almost think of them as two separate generations.

Jeff Jenkins (13:30)

Isn’t that wild?

That’s interesting that you say that. I’m glad that they feel very

different stylistically as they should, but they literally like as

Simple Life 5 was airing, Kardashians 1 was shooting and it was

comedy. So a lot of the tools that we developed on Simple Life.

Orlando Wood (13:51)

shooting. Wow.

Jeff Jenkins (13:57)

We just carried them right over into keeping up with the Kardashians.

And if you remember those early seasons.

my God, Kris Jenner was so brilliantly funny. I tell her to this day,

she is one part Lucille Ball and one part Alexis Colby Carrington, the

Joan Collins character from Nasty. She’s a brilliant comic, a

brilliant, charming comic. And so is Chloe. Chloe was really great

too. Anyway, so yeah, that’s…

Orlando Wood (14:08)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Jeff Jenkins (14:29)

That’s that’s

Orlando Wood (14:29)

Yeah,

it occurs to me it’s a very specific skill set. was gonna, I have a

question here about sort of what makes a good subject. Because it

occurs to me, I’ve seen people who I know to be very charming, very

good looking, and everybody goes, you would be great in a reality

show. And the moment the cameras turned on them, all of their charm

shuts down. And then I know certain people, you know, my wife

included, that…it occurs to me it’s a very specific skill set. was gonna, I have a

question here about sort of what makes a good subject. Because it

occurs to me, I’ve seen people who I know to be very charming, very

good looking, and everybody goes, you would be great in a reality

show. And the moment the cameras turned on them, all of their charm

shuts down. And then I know certain people, you know, my wife

included, that…

When the camera goes on her, she becomes a slightly augmented version

of herself. It’s her turned up to 11 a little bit and she’s, you know,

speaks in really good sound bites and knows how to get her personality

across in a very, very particular way that really works. How do you,

mean, do you have, do you not find out until the pilot that that’s who

or what you’ve got? How do you?

judge that and how do you find those people who are gonna shine in

that way?

Jeff Jenkins (15:20)

That’s a good question. think when we’re talking about your wife, when

we’re speaking about Kaylee, I think like Paris, like Kim, like Khloe,

Kaylee is an it girl. She has it. That thing that no one’s been able

to define since, I think, talking movies.

began in the late 20s, right? Kaylee and those other gals are someone

you wanna spend time with when you see them on camera. You wanna

listen to what they say when they’re speaking on camera. I think to

answer your question, two things, for whatever reason, probably

because I was a weird, strange, introverted child and watched…

Endless, endless thousands of hours of television and movies as a

child. I’m talking like four years old and on watching Merv Griffin

for hours and hours. I think some kind of mechanism was developed so

that when I’m in casting, I do have a feeling in my tummy when

It just like goes off like a microwave that, wow, this person is going

to be very embraced.

Orlando Wood (16:31)

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Jeff Jenkins (16:38)

an audience. I remember I was doing open calls for the real world. I

think I was in Louisiana back then. We’d see like 2000 kids in a day,

right? Tables of 10, five minutes per table. So you have 10 kids in

front of you for five minutes. I had this like stock question that I

would ask a question or two. And one of my first tables, this kid sat

down and rather than answering my questions,

Orlando Wood (16:44)

Yeah.

Yeah.Jeff Jenkins (17:07)

He

commandeered the table and started questioning the other kids and got

a dialogue going. And he was terrifically handsome and he was very

witty. And I wrote on the top of his application, put him on the show.

And that was Theo Vaughn 25 years ago.

Orlando Wood (17:14)

Yeah.

Really? Wow.

Jeff Jenkins (17:30)

I have a little something, a detector that just goes off. So if I just

listen to my or wait for my tummy, that happens. And then to your

point, the other thing is, okay, when you’re actually working with

someone, do they resist or do they lean into it? Meaning, does it feel

like you have…

Orlando Wood (17:48)

Yeah. Yeah.

the sort of improv

thing of the yes and kind of, yeah.

Jeff Jenkins (17:54)

Yeah, like you

said, like Kaylee, when a camera goes on, she can turn herself up to

an 11 and she delivers, right? There’s other folks who you turn the

camera on and they…

Orlando Wood (18:03)

Mm-hmm.

Jeff Jenkins (18:08)

are reticent, they fold a little bit.

If somebody, know, if the tummy goes off and then when you’re working

with someone, if they lean in and they want to be collaborative and

they want to deliver for their fans, then it’s going to work, you

know? It doesn’t work when someone leans away and you have to drag it

out of them. That stinks. That stinks. Did I answer your question?

Orlando Wood (18:31)

Right. ⁓

Yeah, no, brilliantly. Jeff, just a bit of housekeeping thing. You

wouldn’t mind turning your dinger off of your ⁓ phone, would you? No,

that’s okay. No, that was so great. Because I have, I mean, you know,

I have a little bit of experience with that. I did documentaries and

we did one about the Texas State Board of Education, which is an

incredibly dry subject matter. But we did find this.Yeah, no, brilliantly. Jeff, just a bit of housekeeping thing. You

wouldn’t mind turning your dinger off of your ⁓ phone, would you? No,

that’s okay. No, that was so great. Because I have, I mean, you know,

I have a little bit of experience with that. I did documentaries and

we did one about the Texas State Board of Education, which is an

incredibly dry subject matter. But we did find this.

Jeff Jenkins (18:40)

my god, I’m so sorry. Sure.

Orlando Wood (18:56)

a gentleman named Dr. Don McElroy, which, who was a young earth

creationist and he was just fascinating on camera and you sort of

realize, oh, okay, this is going to be the, the sort of clothes line

that we’re going to hang all of the clothes on. This is the, know,

because you need that driving force of a personality, but how do you

do it? You know, obviously so many of the things, whether it’s a

family like the Kardashians or whether it’s the girls on, on from mom

talk, um, you know, on, on secret lives and Mormon wives.

So much of that is about a group that sort of already exists. You may

have your sort of lead person who’s your way in. How do you handle

that? it, you able to bring people out a little bit more? Are you able

to reframe the group or how does that work?

Jeff Jenkins (19:40)

That’s a really good question. mean, it is nice when you have a big

family or a big ensemble because there will be…

cast members who quickly reveal themselves to be, to use your word,

like the anchor, the lead. Like in early Keeping Up with the

Kardashians, Kris Jenner was an anchor. know, Khloe would be having a

bad week and disappear. And then next week, Kim would be out of the

country. And then next week, Kourtney would be in a bad mood. Kris was

always delivering comedy or tears or conflict. Then Bruce J.

Orlando Wood (20:01)

Mm.

Right. Yeah.

Jeff Jenkins (20:18)

Jenner, who’s an anchor. somebody, know, Courtney, think, the, about

Plymouth Rock, it has that very dry.

delivery that people mock and imitate now. So yeah, we had to bring

her along. It was a real process to get her to be vulnerable, to be

real, to share. She was not a anchor.

out of the gate. And at that time, Kendall and Kylie were so young, I

think 11 and 13, very reticent, not leaning in, very much leaning

away. ⁓ So we had to gently bring them out. Same with Mormon wives,

know, Taylor, Frankie, Paul, and I’ve told her this, she actually

reminds me.out of the gate. And at that time, Kendall and Kylie were so young, I

think 11 and 13, very reticent, not leaning in, very much leaning

away. ⁓ So we had to gently bring them out. Same with Mormon wives,

know, Taylor, Frankie, Paul, and I’ve told her this, she actually

reminds me.

Orlando Wood (20:58)

Yeah.

Jeff Jenkins (21:10)

of Paris Hilton and Kim Kardashian in that there’s something in her

DNA, in her blood that just, she doesn’t have to think about how to do

it. She just leans in and it’s happening organically. She’s ⁓ able to

share everything. She has no desire, interest, or maybe even ability

to curate.

Orlando Wood (21:25)

Yeah. Yeah.

Right.

Jeff Jenkins (21:36)

herself to pick and choose.

Orlando Wood (21:38)

Right.

Jeff Jenkins (21:38)

So she’s an anchor on that show where someone like Layla on season

one, if you’ve watched season one and season two, Layla was a bit

reserved in season one, a bit reticent. And I think that’s really

because there were other strong anchors, ⁓ up the scenery and taking

up most of the space. Season two,

Orlando Wood (21:58)

Yeah.

Jeff Jenkins (22:04)

Layla really realized I need to find my voice and be forthright and

take control of my narrative rather than be a reactor to everything. I

need to step forward. And so if you watch season two, she really comes

through loud and with a perspective and that’s how she is in real

life. So it took her.

Orlando Wood (22:10)

Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jeff Jenkins (22:31)

a season to understand. No, you’ve got to lean in. Don’t lean away.

Lean in.a season to understand. No, you’ve got to lean in. Don’t lean away.

Lean in.

So, and even Jonathan Cheban, food god, he did some guest appearances

on Keeping Up with the Kardashians and had fun. When Kim and I did a

spin-off and he had his own show, it took him a minute to understand

how to lean in and be vulnerable. But boy, once he got those tools and

had that understanding, he just exploded like a A triple plus.

Orlando Wood (23:03)

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, it’s so interesting because, you know, obviously you say

the beginnings of it where, you know, going from purely documentary to

then giving the scene some momentum, you know, a push, some inertia

that’s gonna drive it somewhere with goals. And it’s sort of standard

storytelling. But it seems a very, you know, whereas most storytelling

is obviously very prescriptive.

Jeff Jenkins (23:24)

That’s right.

Orlando Wood (23:31)

It seems much more like improv where there’s a, there’s a, know, and

people are yes, ending and, and you have to, as a producer, create an

environment that is, you know, constructed enough that you’re getting

what you need out of it, but free enough that, that real life can

happen, which is what people are looking for. They’re looking for real

reactions from real people that I relate to. How do you manage story?

How do storylines actually work in, you know, something, are you

Jeff Jenkins (23:47)

That’s right.

That’s right.

Orlando Wood (23:57)

working on, like in standard pre-production, a writer’s room would go

away and write things. Are you mining information from the cast,

leading up to it, trying to sort of refine things, keeping them away

from each other and then going, and now we’re gonna put you in a scene

so that all of the pent up emotion of this storyline can be coming out

on camera. How do those things work? Just as ⁓ a sort of…

Jeff Jenkins (24:21)

Sure.

Orlando Wood (24:21)

and

as a producer who loves to know how those things sort of, you know,

how the soft touch works.as a producer who loves to know how those things sort of, you know,

how the soft touch works.

Jeff Jenkins (24:25)

here.

So I think to be honest and to be accurate,

Those producing methods, those tools or approaches or techniques that

we use change as culture changes. So like I said, when we were doing

something like the real world, very pure documentary. When we were

doing the simple life or very early seasons of Keeping Up with the

Kardashians, yes, we could steer it. An example of steering it might

be, okay,

let’s do an episode where the girls try to help a homeless person.

Okay, so as producers, we go find a real homeless person. And we put

that homeless person in proximity.

to the Kardashian family. Now, when they discover the homeless person,

they do whatever they wanna do, and that’s reality.

Courtney and Chloe took him into the family home, gave him a shower,

gave him a shave, put him in Bruce’s clothes, took him to the dentist,

got him new choppers, took him to a shelter, got him booked, took him

to a trade school, got him, basically changed this guy’s life. So all

we did when I say, and you used a good word, give some,

Orlando Wood (25:50)

Yeah.

Jeff Jenkins (25:55)

momentum to something, all we did is say, hey, here’s a homeless

person. Everything else is a documentary, but in real world, you’d

never put the homeless person in front of them. So that’s the

difference. Now jump forward, because Simple Life and Early

Kardashians was 15 years ago. That’s a long time. This pre-social

media. Now,

Orlando Wood (25:56)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Jeff Jenkins (26:21)

It’s so easy and expected that if you’re a cast member on a reality

show, if I put the homeless person in front of you…

you are very well likely to go onto your social media and say,

production actually put that homeless person in front of me. And so,

just kind of destroy the whole suspension of disbelief for the viewer.

So ironically, Orlando, the pendulum has swung all the way back.you are very well likely to go onto your social media and say,

production actually put that homeless person in front of me. And so,

just kind of destroy the whole suspension of disbelief for the viewer.

So ironically, Orlando, the pendulum has swung all the way back.

Orlando Wood (26:39)

Right, right.

Yeah.

Right.

Jeff Jenkins (26:53)

to 1998, where now I’m finding myself again doing very, very pure

documentary. Why?

Orlando Wood (27:04)

And is it true then that

just our lives are more dramatic now because of social media? And so

actually it works out well because the drama is sort of naturally

ensconced in our lives, I suppose.

Jeff Jenkins (27:15)

That’s a good point. I do think that social media as a communication

tool, just like email as a communication tool, complicates

communication, right? If you and I are talking in person or even

speaking over the phone, we can be pretty clear with each other. A

post can be interpreted so many different ways. And as you see on

Secret Lives of Mormon Wives,

Orlando Wood (27:37)

Yeah.

Jeff Jenkins (27:40)

the drama continues on social media and sometimes social media

complicates it because you can’t really express the minutia of what

you’re trying to say in a one sentence text. So anyway, like I said,

we’ve swung back now to where it’s really very pure documentary once

again, which is ironic and also strangely freeing. ⁓

Orlando Wood (27:56)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Jeff Jenkins (28:09)

just

have to record it and still try to shape it in post into a story

that’s satisfying for the viewer.Orlando Wood (28:18)

Yeah, it’s funny around the early 2010s, there was all this chat about

sort of second screen and everybody was working so hard to get people

to have, know, to to orchestrate the second stream. Now it’s it’s sort

of naturally coming out of reality television. You’re kind of like, ⁓

I want to know the post they’re talking about. And so I’m going to go

and dig in here and, know, and look at it there.

Jeff Jenkins (28:41)

Yep, absolutely, absolutely. I remember like, you know, even, I don’t

know, middle of keeping up with the Kardashians, middle years, Kim

would post, I don’t know, this is just an example for the sake of an

example, like, hey, I got engaged to Kanye. And then four months

later, very old news, you’d see the episode where Kim…

Orlando Wood (28:59)

Yeah. Yeah.

Jeff Jenkins (29:03)

and Kanye got engaged. But it didn’t matter that it was four years,

four months later. Didn’t matter that it was old news, because

everyone wanted to see, okay, we know it happened, but I want to see

how it happened.

Orlando Wood (29:15)

yeah, the amount of times I’ve said to someone, I can’t wait for that

episode.

Jeff Jenkins (29:19)

Right, right,

exactly, exactly. The Mormon girls are posting things now. I’m like,

my God, there we go. That’s gonna be an episode. It’s coming soon.

Orlando Wood (29:29)

Yeah.

Well, Secret Lives of Mormon Wives, I do think is fascinating. ⁓ You

know, I think one of the, we just had somebody from ⁓ a group called

Stay in LA, which is all about production, shooting in LA and trying

to get it production back. And I, you know, one of the things I did

think was there is a unintended consequence of things shooting less in

LA and it being an easy place to shoot. And I think that Secret Lives

of Mormon Wives is a great example of it, which is,

We’re seeing more storytelling, not about just the coasts. We’re

seeing, you know, these communities within America and America, its

entertainment has always felt like, I was going to say a monolith, but

it’s always felt coastal. And then there’s sort of this area in

between. And I think that we’re getting these really good insights

into local communities. And I think that, you Utah and the Mormon

community is, one of them. You know, it’s always been, quite one note.We’re seeing more storytelling, not about just the coasts. We’re

seeing, you know, these communities within America and America, its

entertainment has always felt like, I was going to say a monolith, but

it’s always felt coastal. And then there’s sort of this area in

between. And I think that we’re getting these really good insights

into local communities. And I think that, you Utah and the Mormon

community is, one of them. You know, it’s always been, quite one note.

all of the storytelling about Mormonism in the Mormon community. And I

think that what’s really nice to see is how their particular morals

and the way they were raised impact so many of the social media and

regular things that we see in other reality shows, but they handle

things so much differently than I would have presumed. And I think

that that’s a wonderful thing actually.

I mean, are you, you you have a couple of things, you know, obviously

you’ve got the, ⁓ the M’Bee dynasty, ⁓ you know, you’ve got secret

lives and Mormon wives. You’re telling some of these stories that,

that I think, or, or engaging with some of these communities that are

a little bit outside of the norm. Have you really enjoyed that? Has

that, has that become a new fertile ground for you rather than just

staying very much?

know, LA celebrity. ⁓ And what are you kind of finding out of out of

doing that?

Jeff Jenkins (31:15)

To answer the last part of your question first, that’s okay.

Orlando Wood (31:19)

Sorry, I know, I probably threw three questions in there. Sorry about

that.

Jeff Jenkins (31:23)

I absolutely enjoy shooting all over the country. And it’s a, I have a

real luxury of getting to live in these worlds for a little while. And

it’s like, I get to try on different lives and different lifestyles.

It’s very interesting. Like, you know, if I’m on set at the McBee

branch out in Missouri, it’s so cool.

and I want a ranch, I want to be living on a ranch with all these

animals and fly a helicopter over my land. And then I go to Utah, it’s

so clean, everyone’s incredibly polite. It really is very grounded in

faith.

Orlando Wood (32:05)

Yeah.

Jeff Jenkins (32:09)

and Christ and they’re good people. Our cast are really good people. I

get to try on that life and live it for a little while. I love

shooting in LA. I love it. I wanted to work in movies like anybody who

came here back in the day because you’re swept up by everything that

Hollywood that you think it is. To answer or comment on your first

pointand Christ and they’re good people. Our cast are really good people. I

get to try on that life and live it for a little while. I love

shooting in LA. I love it. I wanted to work in movies like anybody who

came here back in the day because you’re swept up by everything that

Hollywood that you think it is. To answer or comment on your first

point

Orlando Wood (32:13)

Yeah.

Mmm.

Jeff Jenkins (32:38)

about production being so complicated in LA. I think it is, I was

having lunch with Irina Medavoy, the wife of the great film producer,

Mike Medavoy. And we were just both, I think it’s the most horrible,

tragic, devastating thing. I can’t believe I’m witnessing it. I’m

shooting a dating show right now.

It’s eight men and eight women. And it’s a very lighthearted, it’s a

dating show. No, it actually is set.

Orlando Wood (33:09)

Is it studio based or is it on on locations?

Jeff Jenkins (33:14)

on a boat, right? I should be shooting that show in Long Beach. I’m

shooting it in Europe. It is cheaper for me to ship 30 cast members

and 50 crew people and put them up in Europe.

Orlando Wood (33:20)

Right.

Yeah.

Jeff Jenkins (33:31)

than it is for me to shoot in Long Beach. I couldn’t even get the

permitting to shoot in Long Beach. What are we doing? What are we

doing? It is, we have been, our industry has been taken for granted.

Our industry built this entire town.

Orlando Wood (33:39)

Yeah.

Mmm.

Yeah.

Jeff Jenkins (33:54)

We have been taken for granted and basically elbowed out of town. It

is the most, I could throw up thinking about it. I’m so greedily glad

that I came here in 1986 and got to experience a bit of it. Look at

Tyler Perry is starting this huge studio, has this huge studio in

another state. I read the other day, Matthew McConaughey,Orlando Wood (34:00)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah, in Georgia.

Jeff Jenkins (34:22)

Witherspoon have started

Orlando Wood (34:23)

Yeah.

Jeff Jenkins (34:24)

a studio in another state. Joe Rogan has taken comedy off the Sunset

Strip and taken it to, I think, Nashville or to Texas, to Austin.

Yeah. It’s like watching Detroit die and it’s Hollywood. And, you

know, great icons like Kaylee’s dad, like…

Orlando Wood (34:32)

Texas, Austin, Texas, yeah.

Yeah.

Jeff Jenkins (34:46)

It just makes me sick. It makes me sick to witness it. I just don’t

know even what to… I’m not a politician. And I know Karen Bass

signed something the other day and it’s probably gonna be too little

too late. But I guess everything changes. I don’t know. What do you

think? What do you think?

Orlando Wood (34:56)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, I agree with you. mean, I think that, you know, to be honest,

I think they they took the industry for granted for far too long, I

think because they believe that stars would always live here. And I

think that, you know, stars will go where the work is. But I think

that, you know, the the the reality is that it was always too

expensive for lesser productions to shoot here because the lottery

system was just a bad idea in terms of the the tax rebate, because the

only independent producers have hard enough time, let alone.

not being sure whether you can count on a tax break. know, bureaucracy

in government is the one thing you should reasonably be able to count

on. you know, independent. So that’s why the only people who were

winning the lottery was the people who could wait around. And the only

people who waited around were the studios. And so it became a tax

break to studios rather than, you know, an injection incentive of cash

and resources into independent filmmakers.not being sure whether you can count on a tax break. know, bureaucracy

in government is the one thing you should reasonably be able to count

on. you know, independent. So that’s why the only people who were

winning the lottery was the people who could wait around. And the only

people who waited around were the studios. And so it became a tax

break to studios rather than, you know, an injection incentive of cash

and resources into independent filmmakers.

that wanted to shoot in LA. And I think it’s a terrible shame. mean,

especially when you drive around LA and you see sites and the last

times they were relevant was when Axel Foley in Beverly Hills Cop was

walking in front of that store or Julia Roberts in Pretty Woman was

walking down Rodeo Drive. These icons of this city that everybody

loves.

are no longer being highlighted anymore. And I think that that also

affects tourism. And I think it affects the esteem of people who live

here. I think it has broad effects across the board.

Jeff Jenkins (36:33)

I do too. It truly breaks my heart and makes me ill. But like I said,

from a greedy perspective, I’m 57. I’m glad that I got to experience

it and be here when it was still a functioning.

Orlando Wood (36:44)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Jeff Jenkins (36:53)

capital of entertainment. But like I said, everything changes and you

know, we’ll see what the future holds.

Orlando Wood (36:56)

Hmm. Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. mean, obviously, since you since you started, it seems

that the production infrastructure around reality television, you

know, as you say, very documentary style, was camera on shoulder, you

know, ⁓ maybe loves or placed mics around that would like generally

capture a lot of stuff.

Now it seems the production infrastructure is a lot more sort of

technically savvy. You’ve got multiple cameras shooting at the time.

You’ve got drone technology, networked cameras. What sort of

technology changes have you kind of seen in the last kind of 10 years

and how big is that production infrastructure now?

Jeff Jenkins (37:37)

⁓ It’s an interesting question. think technology, specifically cameras

and mics and their sensitivity has improved so majorly, so in such a

huge way that combined with, I don’t have to carry.

50 unshot tapes the size of a VHS cassette, I can carry a chip the

size of a penny. That has made shooting much more nimble and the image

much more beautiful and the sound quality much improved. So all the

tech stuff is great improvement.50 unshot tapes the size of a VHS cassette, I can carry a chip the

size of a penny. That has made shooting much more nimble and the image

much more beautiful and the sound quality much improved. So all the

tech stuff is great improvement.

But there’s the other difference that you mentioned. Like when we did

Simple Life 1, I was looking at a crew photo that someone sent me the

other day. I don’t know, there were like a dozen of us in the back of

a pickup truck. It was a really small, I think we had three crews.

That’s 15 people.

Orlando Wood (38:30)

Mm. Yeah.

Yeah.

Jeff Jenkins (38:37)

You know, a show like The Bachelor, I think, has like 200 crew people.

It’s like a multi-million dollar feature film. So I think…

Orlando Wood (38:43)

Right.

But

that’s a sort of contained environment. Is that the same? Is it a

similar personnel structure on something like Secret Lives of Mormon

Wives?

Jeff Jenkins (38:55)

secret life of Mormon wives is probably in between those two, right?

Because frankly, because the technology has improved and the results

can be so beautiful, buyers expect, especially if you’re talking about

the great buyers like Netflix and Hulu and Apple and Amazon.

Peacock, the big, they expect it to look spectacular. If you look at

the first episode of Bling Empire that we did for Netflix, I think it

looks as a feature film, as a Baz Luhrmann feature film. And buyers

expect that. So that expectation, you can’t just go out with one

camera.

Orlando Wood (39:28)

Great, great looking. Yeah.

Jeff Jenkins (39:39)

like we did on Simple Life. I remember following Paris and Nicole

around for hours with one camera. ⁓

Orlando Wood (39:44)

Yeah. And you’re going to have to have multiplelenses if you really want to stylize it in camera and do some of those

interstitial shots.

Jeff Jenkins (39:50)

That’s right. That’s right.

That’s right. So, and I’m not a tech guy, but I really the

important part of my job now is hiring the best people. And our DP on

Secret Lives of Mormon Wives is a genius. Our DP on Bling Empire was a

genius, as were our showrunners. I think it also, to be brief, it

depends on what the project is. Sometimes it’s really advantageous.

to have just one camera. Because you can be very low profile and yeah,

intimate, you don’t draw attention. Sometimes when you’re out on the

street, if you’ve got three cameras, you know, you’re stopping traffic

and the cops want to know what’s going on and.

Orlando Wood (40:25)

more intimate, yeah.

Jeff Jenkins (40:37)

I remember my brilliant producing partner in the later years of

Keeping Up with the Kardashians, if there was something really,

really, really that was gonna be a thunderbolt of information, she’d

sometimes shoot it on an iPhone. Like I think it was Kim telling Scott

he was pregnant for the first time. I’m pretty sure we shot that on an

iPhone.

Orlando Wood (40:37)

Yeah.

Right.

Jeff Jenkins (41:01)

because it was so intimate and we didn’t want Scott to even have a

whiff that it was gonna be something hugely regulatory. So yeah, the

technology.

Orlando Wood (41:01)

Right.

Mm.

Right, yeah.

Yeah, so the perfect size to

stay to keep people responding naturally.Jeff Jenkins (41:17)

Yes, exactly, there you go. Because there is something when you all of

a sudden have three huge cameras on you, you’re really paying

attention, right?

Orlando Wood (41:26)

Yeah,

it occurs to me whenever anybody ever denigrates reality television, I

always say to them, listen, the reason documentaries are so good is

because of reality television. You have so many editors and camera

people and people who have been able to make drama out of very little.

And now that’s why you have all these great documentaries and whatever

else. I think, you know, I think it, you know, it often gets a bad

rap.

⁓ But if you wouldn’t mind, just have one question that I’ve been

asking everyone. I had a boss named Dan Wyden and he used to have this

quote where he said, you’re useless to me unless you fail big at least

twice. The implication being that until you fail big, you still don’t

know a lot of stuff. And I want you to be being audacious and taking

big swings and that’s gonna result in some failure.

And it also meant that you were unlikely to get yelled at if you

messed up at the company because it was one of your two failures. I’m

sure by failure three or four, you might be shown the door. But do

you, can you remember and would you be willing to admit any time where

you failed and what you learned from it?

Jeff Jenkins (42:23)

Right.

⁓ no, I’ve never failed.

Orlando Wood (42:31)

I can see that. I can see that from the posters behind you.

Jeff Jenkins (42:32)

I’m just kidding. I’m just kidding.

Of course

I failed. Of course I failed. I’ve probably tried to block them out.

Of course I failed. I think the first time I failed, to be frank, I

was working on MTV’s Road Rules and we had great content for an

episode. And you know, an editor, I don’t know what they cost back

then, a great editor nowadays, it’s about $5,000 a week. Plus the

equipment rental, plus the assistant, blah, blah,

Plus it’s not cheap. And I remember we had more content than one

episode could hold. And so the show runner asked me, well, do we have

enough for two episodes? Because I’ll commit the funds and I’ll

realign the schedule and I’ll hire another editor and blah, blah,

blah. So all these, you know.Plus it’s not cheap. And I remember we had more content than one

episode could hold. And so the show runner asked me, well, do we have

enough for two episodes? Because I’ll commit the funds and I’ll

realign the schedule and I’ll hire another editor and blah, blah,

blah. So all these, you know.

Orlando Wood (43:11)

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Jeff Jenkins (43:25)

Dozen things that would need to happen. And I said, absolutely. We

have two hours of content, not one. We have two hours. Just being

ridiculously confident.

Orlando Wood (43:32)

⁓

Jeff Jenkins (43:37)

And then, so she spends the money and readjusts the calendar and talks

to MTV and gets the order expanded and does all this, went through all

these hoops. And then we get down to like, I don’t know, external, I

mean, excuse me, internal cut two or something. There’s not two

episodes. There’s not one, but it’s like, back then it was like 40

minutes of content. So there was like,

Orlando Wood (43:55)

No.

Yeah.

Jeff Jenkins (44:02)

55 minutes of content. So there was an episode, it 15 minutes. And

some people would say, ⁓ that’s just, you don’t know how to make

choices. So that was like.

Orlando Wood (44:04)

Right. ⁓

Right.

Was it the confidence

of youth, you think, or just, you know, or you really thought the

footage was that good? Where do you think it came from?

Jeff Jenkins (44:21)

A lot of, I’ll tell you where it came from, a lot of people, I didn’t

know Kaylee’s dad back then, but I think he would be in this family. A

lot of people gave me the advice when I started out, just fake it till

you make it. Just go in there and make a decision and do your thing.

So I was really operating from bravado and false confidence. But I

thought I was gonna get fired. I was like, wow, I just cost this

company, I don’t know.A lot of, I’ll tell you where it came from, a lot of people, I didn’t

know Kaylee’s dad back then, but I think he would be in this family. A

lot of people gave me the advice when I started out, just fake it till

you make it. Just go in there and make a decision and do your thing.

So I was really operating from bravado and false confidence. But I

thought I was gonna get fired. I was like, wow, I just cost this

company, I don’t know.

Orlando Wood (44:41)

Right.

Yeah.

Jeff Jenkins (44:48)

200 grand maybe? I’m gonna be.

Orlando Wood (44:49)

Yeah. And you look at your

salary and you go, I don’t know, they could get that money back by

just cutting that salary out.

Jeff Jenkins (44:55)

Yeah, exactly. That’ll

be a little bit of it. That’ll be a little bit, but they were very

gracious and understanding and gave me a second chance. But your boss

who started that statement that you shared with me, I think that’s

really insightful because if you failed a couple times, especially in

a big way and you’re still around,

First of all, then you’ve got chutzpah and some balls, not to just

crumble and crawl away and start a new career doing something else.

That sets something. And also, hopefully you’ve learned and you’re not

going to make that horrible mistake again. So I’m, you know, if I’m

working with you, I’m safe from that. So that was my first biggie. ⁓

Orlando Wood (45:36)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

well, that’s great. Jeff, thank you so much for for sitting down and

doing this with us. It occurs to me you should be on camera far more.

Jeff Jenkins (45:49)

Much pleasure.

you’re

very kind. Thank you. Thank you. It’s a pleasure to talk with you. And

I’m really happy for you and excited for you that this podcast is

growing and taking off. It’s really exciting.very kind. Thank you. Thank you. It’s a pleasure to talk with you. And

I’m really happy for you and excited for you that this podcast is

growing and taking off. It’s really exciting.

Orlando Wood (45:55)

⁓

Thank you.

Thank you

so much. I really appreciate that. you’re, in my head, you’re on the

Mount Rushmore of, you know, reality television. And, you know, and

it’s been such a treat to talk to you. And I just love all your work.

Jeff Jenkins (46:15)

God bless you.

Thank you, God bless you.