British Arrows at 50: craft, change, and the future of advertising

Technically Creative by KoobrikLabs Podcast Transcript

Title: British Arrows at 50: craft, change, and the future of advertising 

Host: Orlando Wood
Guests: Simon Cooper and Charlie Gatsky

speaker-0 (00:00.174)
It’s been an incredible year. British arrows has turned 50.

speaker-1 (00:03.03)
We’re such a great part of the British economy and you can only see how Hollywood has invested in British production communities. That we’re thinking like this is crazy. We should be really celebrating that as part of the economy and as part of the British output of creativity. We’re such a major part of validating that and offering a platform for that.

speaker-2 (00:22.898)
Hopefully AI stops being the ghoul in the room that’s going to destroy everything and becomes another tool that gets us to creative places that we wouldn’t have been able to get to, rather than just being a money-saving tool which no one wants and isn’t good for anybody and isn’t going to do the craft any good. I do think that humans are absolutely hardwired to recognise human endeavour and not engage with or appreciate things that are too easy. Anything that’s done because it’s easy has no…

speaker-0 (00:48.087)
If I were gonna show somebody who doesn’t know about British advertising one piece of work that I think epitomizes the greatness of British advertising over the last 50 years, what would it be?

speaker-0 (01:07.064)
Thank you guys so much for being here. I love you both so much and I’m so appreciative because the British Hours is tomorrow. And so I know you have a lot to do. So I really appreciate you sitting down to chat with me. Simon Cooper, you are the current and outgoing chairman of the British Television Advertising Awards. Charlie Gatsky, you are the incoming chairman. So I’m really excited to have you guys here. It’s been an incredible year. The British Hours has turned 50. You have just done some incredible events this year. Can you just tell me…

what you’ve been up to this year, what’s kind of going on in the arrows and how it’s going.

speaker-2 (01:40.462)
It’s going really well, I hope. I hope that we’ve brought kind of a bunch of wonderful events to the sort of advertising community and actually to the wider public this year for the first time, which has been amazing. To celebrate the 50 years of recognizing and celebrating work of excellence within the British advertising community. And it’s a great excuse to do that and to try and create more than just the big gala dinner awards event.

it’s obviously the young arrows every year, which we, which has been growing and growing, but, to, but to be able to host a couple of completely new events, has been really gratifying. think they’ve, they’ve, they’ve gone really well. They’ve been, had an amazing take up and it sort of demonstrates the, love and affection that the community seems to still have for the arrows, which is wonderful. Yeah.

speaker-0 (02:33.07)
because most years you guys put on just the big British Arrows award show, which is the most prestigious award to win in British television advertising. But this year, yeah, yeah, right. know, but this year you’ve done two extra events around the 50th. So one is a retrospective of all British advertising or the best British advertising of the last 50 years at OuterNet, which is a great big multimedia space. Then as well, the Festival of Creativity.

speaker-2 (02:41.91)
And the Young Arrows. The Young Arrows is every year.

speaker-0 (03:02.924)
What’s it been like to kind of expand that and put all that on in one year?

speaker-2 (03:07.416)
Well, challenging, mainly for the Arrows team who are small and working incredibly hard to just put on the two main events as it is. So it was a big challenge to get the other events together. The Altenet obviously were very helpful in letting that exhibition happen there, which was great and great to do something that was public facing and involve the public.

And the festival, I think was something that the board had talked about and wanted to try and do something around that was a bit more informative and educational in a way. so the 50th gave us the excuse to do that because there was 50 years of great craft and work to look back on and be slightly nostalgic about, but also with a view to looking…

forward for the next coming years and the next chairs and the next, you know, so, so yeah, it was, it was something we really wanted to do. I think the, I think the, the Ares team might have preferred not to, but it’s, it, I think it went really, really well.

speaker-1 (04:21.688)
Definitely a question of timing that has been really challenging for them to be doing the biggest event of the year as well as the craft festival in such a short space of time.

speaker-0 (04:33.398)
Yeah. And does this year lay a really fertile ground for you? Like, what are you looking at and going, I’m having that. That’s something we’re going to do on an ongoing basis. And what are you looking at and going, I’m not sure I would have done that actually. But we’re going to continue it and change it a little bit.

speaker-1 (04:48.974)
Well, think, you know, I speak actually also for Dom, because I feel like he should be sat here between us. Dom Thomas. Yeah, co-chair coming in and with a view to seeing how much work it’s probably taken. Simon on his own. was delighted to be co-chairing. So I should speak for him and his great to have the perspective of the 360. I think we felt that at this time, whilst we are expanding and we are looking at

changing landscapes, it’s very useful to have quite the full 360 perspective of a more traditional agency or studio as we are uncommon, but with production company there gave us a wider gambit of what’s going on across the industry. But obviously we looked to Simon and what he and the team have done and it’s brilliant and audacious and modern and feels like a really rife.

and exciting landscape for us to build on. I think specifically around what we see as sort of the young arrows and what that means to us. I think the board have often come together and tried to feel more future facing and felt this responsibility to celebrate and educate and inspire the next generation.

Obviously, I’m not going to say your old Simon, I definitely feel like I’ve some years behind me.

speaker-2 (06:21.934)
My god. came here with my bus pass, you know that, you? I did. I’m really enjoying it. I’m really, really enjoying it. actually enjoy getting on public transport because I’m like… I could change buses and it wouldn’t cost me any more. I could get on three tubes. It’s fine.

speaker-1 (06:36.296)
I’m not quite at the bus bus, but I’ll happily take it. But I think we feel like a responsibility to be more than just a validation for the year’s work, but a inspirational community that educates and informs the next generation. And so that’s really something that we’re nabbing and building on.

speaker-0 (06:59.214)
Yeah, because I mean, I mean a it looks like from the outside that this year is massive expansion I mean the young arrows is just a couple of years old now You’ve got you know, you’ve done the outer net you’ve now got the festival whether these things continue the thread that for me is interesting is Part of your remit is promotion right promotion of British advertising craft and the crafts people who do it and it seems to me with things like outer net and there’s also the

the Webber, the Walker Arts Center in Minneapolis. Every year, the British Arrows, you know, partners with the Walker Center and shows the best of British advertising. And it’s a ticketed event, a huge audience. It’s always sold out. That coupled with Outer Net, for example, the the idea that people would pay with either their time or their money to watch ads.

I think says something very special about British advertising. Do you look at all of the extra events and activations that you’ve done this year as part of the new remit and something that you’re kind of keen to build on? Because that next generation cares about audiences. They care about authenticity and they care about good craft. They just very often were not that great at promoting it outside of our own little bubble.

speaker-1 (08:21.454)
think we 100 % agree on that.

speaker-2 (08:23.79)
When I came in, the Young Arrows was one year old. So it’s now, we’ve now had four. And that, and for me, that was the thing that I zeroed in on because the big gala event is, as you say, it’s, it’s, it’s still the most enthusiastically attended and enjoyed and yes, and respected sort of awards event of the calendar.

speaker-1 (08:45.346)
I

speaker-2 (08:50.008)
But it is all of us just slapping ourselves on the back in a vacuum chamber. And the Young Hours is very, very different because it is a cinema format. You really watch and appreciate the work. It is full of all those young people who have put work in and are working on that work. And they are much more enthusiastic about each other’s success than you tend to see in the sort of more established…

community. So it’s a really joyous occasion and it’s a real window to get to see that work. you know, it’s quite hard to get to see a lot of that work. A lot of it is student films, a lot of it is, you know, by unsigned directors, stuff like that. it’s an incredibly rewarding. so, and I’ll shut up, sorry for the sing. So for me, that was really my focus.

when I came in and the desire to do something more educational, like what the festival may become, it was quite retrospective of the festival we just had, but I think it’s got the potential to be incredibly educational, is where I think that’s where the Aero’s value could really be in terms of, like you say, not only encouraging the next generation that we so desperately always need,

but also wider sort of appreciation and wider sort of reach. that’s kind of what the aim of the public facing thing was.

speaker-0 (10:29.87)
One of the things that I think is so great about the Young Arrows is that it’s free to enter. That, think, in a world where everybody’s trying to monetize absolutely every little activation they do and award shows are filling their coffers on everybody’s desire to be appreciated because the appreciation of an award gets you more work. I mean, there’s a very real math there. But I think that that speaks to the Arrows is not a for-profit entity.

And I think that that’s quite unique. and, and I think that it allows you guys to take advantage of opportunities to do things that are just good for the community and good for the ecosystem without necessarily always needing, you’re always making the dollars and cents make sense, but there’s a broader remit. There’s a broader responsibility to the community.

speaker-2 (11:21.556)
Absolutely.

speaker-0 (11:23.234)
Sorry, there wasn’t really a question there.

speaker-1 (11:28.579)
Indeed. think it’s really good you’ve noted that actually because it’s amazing how few people actually know that about the arrows.

speaker-2 (11:37.358)
I think we even had a board member quite recently who didn’t actually realise that and was sort of objecting to something that was going on.

speaker-1 (11:43.438)
But I think that is really important and I think we haven’t necessarily shone a light on that, but it’s something that I think is about why The Arrows is quite special because it does have an integrity to it that is rooted at a heart of not just filling the coffers and some…

speaker-0 (11:44.492)
laughter

speaker-1 (12:12.642)
you know, no other brands noted, but I think there are, I think we do feel that we’re like, okay, the money we do have needs to really work hard for what it is we’re trying to do. And that is around supporting this team of craftspeople and promoting Britishness. think we definitely feel like that’s things we want to drill harder down into.

speaker-0 (12:40.046)
Yeah.

speaker-1 (12:41.41)
How do you feel about the Britishness piece now living? Have you got a perspective that is back on what you got from the British School of Advertising?

speaker-0 (12:47.661)
Yeah

speaker-0 (12:52.174)
Yes, well, mean, for me, A, walking into the awards itself was a very special thing to get invited to my first time. I always took it very seriously. you know, Barney Richard, you know, may he rest in peace. I always used to have a go at him at the Every Arrows, because he would always show up not dressed up, not suited and booted. I would be like, what are you doing? This is the one.

day a year where we all put on black tie and we all look like we’re part of a real industry, a real actual proper grown up industry, like get on board. And for me it was always, know, especially back when it was, there were the dark years when it was at Battersea evolution, you know, it’s back at the Grosvenor house, which is a great big grand ballroom and it just felt so proper and so grown up. And so I really loved it wanting to kind of

you know, be a part of something like that. I felt really a part of something. I think that, you know, the perspective that’s changed for me a little bit is actually more born of this. I’ve engaged and interviewed so many creators and so many young people who they don’t see, even the panel that you were a part of at the festival looking back, you know, there was that great young man who was, yes, who was talking about

speaker-1 (14:12.358)
Caleb Famigliano.

speaker-0 (14:16.162)
how difficult it was to argue. Like on the one hand, he had to be incredibly bullish and stand behind his ability to do this job for a hundred grand. I mean, that was a huge job for him. And on the other side of it, he was like, but privately I was bricking it. You know, I didn’t know that I could do this. I believed I could. And in the room I had to pretend I could. And you know, a lot of people who don’t have that chutzpah, I think,

don’t see the path for themselves to get in, if that’s the road they have to travel. And yet a lot of them do see the ability to turn a camera on themselves and maybe build a little bit of an audience. And that’s why I think it’s so great about the Young Arrows is it is in a cinema, it is free to enter, it is, what have you made? Show us, share it. We will award, we have now created the stepping stones to this grand ballroom of industry, you know? And I think that that,

I find really impressive and what I also appreciate about the arrows, and again, I’m not sure there’s a question here, just my opinion, is that there was a video blogger in the room at the festival, the outer net is an audience-based thing. I think that younger people think in terms of audiences and they get inspired not by the television and seeing an ad or seeing something on the telly. I think they get inspired by people in their

their peer group succeeding. having that conversation about I’m not sure, but I think I could and having that out loud. And so what I’m very encouraged by what you’re doing and I hope to see more of and my perspective just as somebody who’s just started putting himself out there in this way is that getting those opportunities and playing that language of audience that I think is so important, I think is something that I’m so encouraged to see the arrows doing.

speaker-1 (16:12.674)
Yeah. Yeah.

speaker-2 (16:15.096)
Okay.

speaker-0 (16:16.014)
Sorry, this is turning into me on a soapbox. I’m telling you guys what a wonderful job you’re doing.

speaker-1 (16:23.83)
And I think you’re right though about, you know, we know that people want more physical experience and we know that with people living on the internet, that makes me sound so old, with more community-based experiences digitally, we know that physical experience is important to people. I mean, we’re seeing that with brands too and, you know, drawing people to a place and having community around that and commenting and creating conversation is at the heart of most brands kind of.

Nirvana at the moment. So we need to kind of react to that ourselves. And that’s probably where we’ve all shifted in that posture. But I think it’s come largely, I think, from a desire to be really bringing the next generation on our journey and really offering them something tangible that they can participate in. And I think the bit around the Britishness and about promoting Britishness

is largely because we’re such a great part of the British economy. And you can only see how Hollywood has invested in British production communities that we’re thinking like, this is crazy. We should be really kind of celebrating that and knowing that production really covers a full remit now of output. We should be kind of like properly celebrating that.

as part of the economy and as part of the British output of creativity. We’re such a major part of validating that and offering a platform for that.

speaker-2 (17:59.052)
Yeah, totally. Because I think the Young Arrows does the job of recognizing and celebrating people who’ve already taken that step. The festival, I think, has the potential to be that the place where you go and you hear how to take that first step or experience of people who’ve done it, like listening to Caleb. And the more we can do in those terms to make it seem accessible and to see and to show

what the pathways are in and how that feels and who the people you need to surround yourself by to go on that journey. think it’s really, it’s a sort of slightly missing step in the ways that we can help.

speaker-0 (18:40.034)
Yeah. I mean, you mentioned how big a part of the British economy the advertising industry is. There was a British government survey that said that creative industries are growing at nearly two times the rate of the British economy, which on the face of it is a fabulous statistic. That’s wonderful news for everybody working in creative industries. Although I think that most of the people we talk to are having a harder time now than they did five years ago. And I think that

We’re at this sort of inflection point where social media has been kind of eating the lunch of a lot of traditional advertisers. And now, lighter fluid has basically been poured on the fire by the advent of AI. Does the British Eros remit change at all when looking at the industry where it is, looking at how hard a time people are having?

between the cost of living crisis in general and just work diversifying along across so many media platforms. Where’s the British arrows responsibility or perspective on how to address those sorts of changes?

speaker-1 (19:52.408)
Big question.

speaker-2 (19:54.136)
That’s a big question.

speaker-1 (19:58.19)
You tuck in first.

speaker-2 (19:59.822)
I

speaker-0 (20:00.418)
Feel pressure by the way, we can always edit.

speaker-2 (20:03.694)
That’s fine. can speak to the past changes. mean, obviously it’s not called the British Television Advertising Awards anymore for good reason. And I think that the, you just have to come back to what the focus is, which is craft and ideas. Traditionally it was two different awards ceremonies. They were brought together, but it was an arrow ceremony and a craft ceremony.

So it’s, it’s celebrating ideas and craft. It doesn’t matter where moving image, it’s become sort of specify specified moving image, which is rather clunky, but kind of necessary. so ideas and craft in any form of moving image advertising on whatever platform doesn’t matter. So, so the job of the arrows is to somehow, you know, tweak the

categories in order to be able to reward and recognize those new forms of advertising as they appear and as they become good. And that’s quite a hard job because it’s a big show. There are a lot of categories already. What are you going to get rid of if you’re going to take something new on and how many inches are you actually going to see from that new category? it is a…

It happens every year. We look at it and we go, what do need to change? What do we need to change? I’ve deliberately avoided the question of AI in that question. that remains to be seen how we deal with that and whether there’s craft and good ideas.

speaker-1 (21:44.544)
I think that will still be the case myself. So I feel pretty confident about that. And I think those two things have never changed really. That’s lovely John Heggety’s 8080 idea in execution maths thing that he refers to many times.

speaker-2 (22:00.622)
I’ve only heard that four times at festival from various people.

speaker-1 (22:03.763)
No, but I love it. Thank you, John.

speaker-0 (22:06.126)
Just for anybody who doesn’t know, the quote is, every ad is great. Every piece of great work is 80 % idea and 80 % execution.

speaker-2 (22:10.158)
Every work

speaker-1 (22:15.244)
Yeah. And then he does explain his maths isn’t quite as bad as that, but you know, he does a portion and has always, and I’m always, you know, really delighted, always, and inspired to hear John talk about execution. He was one of the very early day adopters of the art of craft in distinguishing a good idea from making it an original execution. So yeah, all the producers in the world.

applaud him for that. And I think that’s gone on and on to become stronger and stronger as we’ve gone because not because there’s not great new ideas, but there are interesting ways to to execute that make for very original work or more original work. And I think that will always happen whether AI is deployed or not in those tools personally. And I’ve always felt very confident around the progressive ways and uses of technology.

in the art of storytelling. What they do for labour forces is another thing, but in terms of what makes for great ideas and great execution, there’ll be another tool. And we have lived through other revolutions that have been, I would argue, greater. The digital revolution, 21 to 23, really did change things massively as

speaker-2 (23:34.798)
We thought were talking about the original digital revolution of like 92, 93, where we went from analog.

speaker-1 (23:43.224)
Which was also huge. Massive. Yeah, massive. That’s a really interesting conversation to see in era terms. What massively changed how we make film post-produce and distribute. We’ve lived through that and some, I’m really quite… We are, as a board as well, open-minded as how we recognise what AI will bring to the process.

speaker-2 (24:09.87)
but it is iterative.

speaker-0 (24:11.255)
Yeah

speaker-1 (24:11.67)
And we’ve had to be and that’s why actually the board has become much more dynamic around these conversations and it’s ripe conversation from all of us around categories and definitions and what’s important and relevant.

speaker-0 (24:26.874)
I mean, it hasn’t, you know, like we’re not seeing that, you know, that much coming out that, you know, certainly nothing that’s any good is coming out. That’s that’s AI end to end. it’s sort of this specter of things we’re seeing online that’s got everybody kind of everybody’s radar up, but there’s nothing that would kind of, you know, lead in all craft and

speaker-2 (24:47.374)
Because there’s nothing that is… No, exactly. I mean, it’s so dangerous having these conversations because inevitably there’s an enormous chance you’re to look like an absolute… Yeah, five weeks. It is going to be Charlie’s problem.

speaker-0 (25:00.34)
It hit in five years,

speaker-1 (25:05.1)
Don’t worry, you’ve done quite well.

speaker-0 (25:07.726)
Charlie’s problem now.

speaker-1 (25:12.43)
I’m relying on Dom here.

speaker-2 (25:16.852)
No, like you, think, hopefully AI stops being the ghoul in the room that’s going to destroy everything and becomes another tool that gets us to creative places that we wouldn’t have been able to get to otherwise, rather than just being a money saving tool, which no one wants and isn’t good for anybody and isn’t going to do the craft any good at all. But yeah, would definitely not.

there yet, because no one’s using it for the right reasons. They’re using it to experiment. And like I think you said in one of your notes about every time there’s been a revolution, the work is shit to begin with and then gets good because people start using it in the right way and using it judiciously and using it to elevate craft and execution and access ideas that have been born out of that new technology potentially rather than replacing humanity.

Because I think we’re, I do think that humans are absolutely hardwired to recognise human endeavour and not engage with or appreciate things that are too easy. Anything that’s done because it’s easy, it has no value.

speaker-0 (26:28.226)
Well, there’s a quote I always come, or not a quote, but something somebody said to me once, was, Gary Casparov was beaten by Deep Blue in 1996. didn’t usher in a whole new era of people watching robots play each other in chess. I think that, chess has never been bigger. Ever since Queen’s Gambit, chess is huge. Magnus Carlsen is a sort of rock star of the chess world. mean, it’s huge. People are playing it on Twitch. I mean, it’s never been bigger. So it’s, a robot can do that better than anybody we’re watching play.

And yet everybody’s watching these people play because the human endeavor is what’s magical about.

speaker-2 (27:03.16)
We might be being fabulously naive though, it is the saving of the money that will drive the bloody thing.

speaker-0 (27:08.718)
Isn’t it the same thing that happened in like 2005 where everybody goes, we love that idea. Isn’t it great? Can we do it for 20 grand and make it viral? Yeah. And it was the same cost saving driven conversation and producers like us had to sit there and explain to the client, you’ve got the same idea in between your first frame and your last frame. Just because it’s viral. Yes. You don’t have to spend the media money. Congratulations. That’s where you’re saving the money.

speaker-2 (27:33.966)
Doesn’t make my gaffer any cheaper.

speaker-0 (27:35.99)
Exactly right.

speaker-1 (27:37.646)
think at the moment there’s also audiences really want to see, as you said, that human endeavour. certainly at Uncommon, we often demonstrate the production process as part of the storytelling. We know that because the audience wants to see behind the screen a bit and to marvel at it. We’ve turned whole houses upside down just to show that it was all done in camera.

just now is just like a Brit box. Yeah, Brit box with amazing, you know, was all done in camp. I think there’s always been a fascination of the how to and that’s actually now becoming largely a comms benefit for clients just to say, know, we are this big, which is great. We are, we have got, we are a modern, we really did, but we’ve really done it. Here’s the value. And I really, and I, we really embrace that.

we really bang that drum and we really bang the taste part of craftsmanship because really and truly, you you’re still going to need to aspire to what’s new and coming for any audience, you know, it’s definitely an element of that that sort of does win over hearts and minds.

speaker-2 (28:59.968)
I love that. I mean, I think that’s really key if we can continue to increase the value in that, in the making of, in endeavor.

speaker-0 (29:12.908)
Yeah, I mean, I follow somebody online and actually my previous podcast producer I have, she was our podcast producer. She’s now got 200,000, 250,000 followers on TikTok and she’s got a sub stack that’s like the number one sub stack in the States. And so she told me to F off. Very kindly and sweetly, but you know.

speaker-1 (29:33.806)
Thank for the platform, but I’ve got much bigger audiences to serve.

speaker-0 (29:37.464)
Exactly. So you’re, you want me to be behind camera? No, thanks. it was very interesting watching somebody go through that. I’m so impressed by her and, and what she’s done. It kind of, you know, what it showed to me is that, you know, she turned me, she’s been kind of doing her sub stack. She gets paid for it. and you know, somebody she turned me on to was, was producing his stuff, a sub stack as well. And he said, I’m going to do a book.

And every month I’m going to release a chapter of this book. And he did it for 12 months. it was basically… exactly. Exactly. This is just old things.

speaker-2 (30:11.758)
I just did it.

speaker-1 (30:14.904)
Dressed up in a new way, You’ll find.

speaker-0 (30:18.166)
Amazing. The amazing thing to me was I will have paid five dollars a month for 12 months. That’s arguably far more than the book. And when the book comes out, I’ve already pre-ordered it. So the value of the media remains the same. He got a bigger deal with his publisher for a higher print run because he had an audience and people had shown their willingness to purchase from him. that thing that you’re talking about.

speaker-1 (30:38.018)
the head audience.

speaker-0 (30:46.836)
You know, I’m actually arguing a little bit for, you know, if you’re doing the, I know it’s a bit out of date now, but the John Lewis Christmas campaign, I’m arguing for start letting the production designer post about it in October when they get the job and start drawing up designs and get audiences that way. Cause that’s how the younger audiences certainly consume things and get inspired. go, you know, instead of there being a launch that people know nothing about and then explaining that it was awesome.

speaker-2 (31:16.438)
Yeah,

speaker-0 (31:16.878)
Let people have that process because our industry is so fun and we don’t let anybody into it in that way.

speaker-2 (31:24.554)
When we made Sony Paint, which I maintain still, I haven’t seen an ad that was harder to execute than that ever. We had an audience all the time around us on that Glasgow estate watching the eight hours of burying explosives and mixing paint and hanging barrels from side of the building and things that are going on time. And we were very unprepared and the agency were very unprepared because it was

2006.

speaker-0 (31:55.368)
Yeah, I was that felon. I came down to the shoot because I wanted to…

speaker-2 (31:58.126)
Everybody had first generation digital camera phones in the audience and of course no one thought about any of

speaker-1 (32:05.39)
Can you imagine if you asked anyone if they had that footage?

speaker-2 (32:08.622)
No, no, I mean it was all online before we’d wrapped. And Agency and Sony were absolutely losing their shit about it. And it’s like, it’s great. It’s the perfect thing. You’ve got this footage of all these workmen and this building and this kind of chaos and the cranes. And it’s all online creating this anticipation for the ad when it came out. was sort of retrospectively perfect.

speaker-0 (32:35.296)
And it was after balls, so people sort of already knew the bravia work. Yeah.

speaker-2 (32:39.714)
But it was very interesting watching that happen.

We shot on film, so we hadn’t even seen it. We were for the film to be developed and it was online.

speaker-1 (32:51.358)
I mean, literally shoot me. But there is something around event-asizing all of these things that is very, very exciting. And to your point about people wanting to participate, that feeling of participation is something that lot of brands do really get their arms around now, I think. And then, you hear these words activation, which are really all just like…

things where you’re just being able to get there and to see something that other people can film and non-earned media is largely coming from that sort of brand activity that feels very viral. mean, all these, language around these things I always find really interesting because they’re largely things that we would have experienced in different ways or still trying to create noise and trying to have things move.

without paid media may have once been called a PR thing, but it’s now called a, we would have called it a stunt, now called Activate. It’s the same desire to kind of be part of conversations and be relevant, isn’t it? And see things that are interesting.

speaker-2 (34:03.662)
The challenge would be just maintaining the authenticity of it. Because even as you were describing all of that, I was thinking, I think I’ve seen AI things where it looked like they’re behind the scenes and looked like that.

speaker-1 (34:16.333)
But I don’t know, but I think it’s actually people want to go to your point about the outer. People want to be there. The of work, the thought of work now, not to reference on common again, but the sort of work we do is often we’re looking for these activation experiences where you will create time for audience to gather and to comment. think that’s a really, really, I personally find that work.

speaker-2 (34:20.641)
Yeah, yeah, Yes, if you can be… Yes, of course.

speaker-1 (34:45.472)
really exciting. It kind of crosses into the work for me, which is around like live broadcasts that I found so exhilarating after having done years of very, you know, waiting for the edit to come out. It’s nothing more exciting than just going, let’s go live. I think that feeling, and feeling is something we probably haven’t spoken about very much, but what is the vibe and the feeling you’re trying to connect?

speaker-0 (35:03.342)
Mm.

speaker-1 (35:13.41)
with people nowadays comes largely from gathering in person and creating a ventisizing stuff that is very exciting, which I think the Arrows really has captured this year. The festival was like people talking afterwards about the connectivity and being in the room and

speaker-2 (35:25.986)
It’s so unique.

speaker-2 (35:34.114)
Which is the thing that we’ve lost from a captive audience in advertising, it? There’s no conversation around any of it. The water cooler conversation because no one’s seeing everything at the same time. So maybe that’s where that yearning comes from to be able to share the experience of it.

speaker-0 (35:55.982)
I’d love to talk a little bit of, know, craft is a term that’s been brought up so many times. And as you say, the craft awards used to be their own thing. Now they’ve been brought in. The festival the other day was the Festival of Craft. You know, obviously one of the things that always amazed me about British advertising was that actually British advertising was always ahead of British entertainment.

when it came to filmmaking craft. You only have to watch the Harry Potter movies to watch British filmmaking actually grow up over the course of seven movies. That first Chris Columbus movie, there was a lot of practical effects and the lighting was a bit iffy sometimes and not to crap on British filmmaking, there’s an incredibly big story. But you can see there was a sort of…

speaker-1 (36:38.83)
I’d go there with you all.

speaker-0 (36:43.31)
I think we would call it charm, dispassionately you’d kind of say maybe a little bit of a chintziness, sort of quirkiness. Then by the time the last Harry Potter movie came out, the effects that Framestore and MPC were doing were Hollywood level. And that’s led to a complete renaissance of things like Star Wars and everything shooting over here, the new Avengers movie shooting over here.

the craftspeople, the people who make those sets happen, who integrate the post with the production, you know, that kind of grew up during the Harry Potter years, but Guinness Surfer was prior to that. You know, mean, there are, you know, pieces of advertising that far exceeded the level of craft of the filmmaking industry for years.

speaker-1 (37:16.494)
Thank

speaker-2 (37:31.982)
Well, certainly the television industry. I mean, think that we were all aware when we were making the, you know, in the nineties and that kind of era of incredibly ambitious advertising. was far better than the TV it was around. It was between, measurably in every metric, it was better.

With the filming sheet? Don’t know, not sure. I mean, I know what you mean, because I mean, I can’t speak to it in terms of the progression of the Harry Potter movie. But, you know, TV was kind of grey. BBC drama was always sort of kind of pretty nastily lit from my memory of those days. were our features that bad? I don’t know.

speaker-0 (38:24.782)
No, no, they certainly weren’t bad. They were great features. But I think they didn’t have a Hollywood level sheen to them in terms of integrating post-production. Anytime post-production tended to show up in a British film, it was always a bit not quite right. And I think that those Harry Potter moves produced by David Heyman and Warner Brothers, I think…

trained a lot of really good crew and certainly the post-production facilities here got to another level. But I always felt, you know, to me and television, in addition to film, was doing more interesting things in post-production especially or integration of post-production and production together than the film industry was. know, film industry was great, a really charming, you know, kind of shot, reverse shot, know, of, you know, rom-com. know, yeah, exactly. But it was…

It was the, when it got into like heavy effects, you know, it tended to be, I think, led by the ad community. Yeah, maybe. But yeah.

speaker-2 (39:29.822)
I’m trying to think of American movies at the time as well. You still had Superman with a big blue glow around him while he was flying. Like, shit blue screen.

speaker-1 (39:39.47)
I do think there has been some excellence though that has been associated with British VFX for some time that has benefited massive through these massive IP led type swathes of work. And others, know, look at Gravity. mean, there’s only Tim Webber who could have made Gravity as a British VFX superstar that was awarded the Oscar for it.

speaker-0 (39:40.778)
else.

speaker-1 (40:08.534)
a level here that is almost supersonic, I think. That’s insane. But I think the relationship between filmmakers and Hollywood has definitely broadened. mean, you have to look at how much is being made here for premium TV and film that is extraordinary now. Yes. When you go down to those studios and see the big end over it as well.

speaker-2 (40:35.054)
I think there was an enormous amount of cross-pollination between ads and the film world and much less so in TV and I think that’s changed as well. There’s obviously not much TV, it’s all the same aspirations and crew and technical ability as film.

speaker-0 (40:54.732)
Yeah, mean, listen, my point was not to try and show on the British film industry. was actually…

speaker-2 (40:57.134)
That’s

speaker-2 (41:01.462)
Tap into your Harry Potter obsession.

speaker-1 (41:05.215)
I’m of the rings!

speaker-0 (41:06.51)
I this is why we picked this room, so I could bring up Harry Potter in a safe environment. But no, I mean, think the point I was trying to make maybe very badly was that I feel like, you know, so much of what I think of as really great craft happening in the UK industry was stuff that I was seeing from advertising, actually not film at the time.

You know, the early 90s, early 2000s, I was seeing a higher level of craft in commercials in the UK and some of the highest level of craft in the world in commercials. British commercials were leading at Cannes and leading at worldwide festivals while I think doing some of the best and most interesting work on the planet. And I think that filmmaking sort of caught up to that. And so I guess what I was trying to get into is

The responsibility of the festival and of the arrows to support those crews and teams. mean, how do you, know, obviously there’s the celebration factor, but what is something practical that can be done to, you know, protect and amplify those craftspeople at a time where I think we’re all worried for them more than,

Anybody else? We’re all worried for the production designer, the gaffer, the sound teams. We’re more concerned about that as these new tech tools come out. Is there anything practical that the the arrows can can or is planning to do?

speaker-2 (42:44.408)
Okay, what does it do already? The whole purpose of the craft side of the arrows is to recognize those people in a way that they’re often overlooked by other awards bodies.

speaker-1 (42:54.242)
Yeah, the sum of the parts is really where we get off. And recognising that in relation to the overall art form that is the industry.

speaker-2 (43:06.444)
in of what else.

speaker-1 (43:08.59)
For me, it could come more about the education and the advocacy around what that brings to the British economy. We feel that there’s probably more to be spoken to a younger… We spoke about this actually on Thursday at the Croix Festival, Joe D’Souza spoke about this, you know, we used to be a really easy talent pool. People thought of us as a very sexy, incredible…

speaker-2 (43:13.676)
and also

speaker-1 (43:36.246)
industry to enter, whereas we are now much more, there’s many more options if you have a creative, if you want to do, have a creative career, there are many more places as well to go and find your first steps. So promoting, advertising industry as a place for young people to come and feel excited by still feels really important to me personally.

speaker-2 (43:52.344)
Well yeah.

speaker-2 (44:04.014)
No, totally. And I think what you were saying about highlighting the workings behind the screen is really key. If you’re asking about how in terms of protecting those crafts, continuing to feed that craft with new talent or highlighting the sort of inherent beauty and endeavour in it, then yeah, just keep on shouting about it, guess, showing the workings.

You know, do you, is there a way of, is the way of specifically awarding something that has been done purely by human hands, that kind of thing? Do you start delineating between things that are, do you have a made by humans sort of quality mark on things? I mean,

speaker-1 (44:51.95)
would also argue like there’s plenty, you know, what’s remarkable about technical progression is you still need the conductor for the orchestra. So you won’t be able to bring in junior talent and expect them to understand how to use useful resources if they don’t understand the problem they’re solving in the first place. So, you know, it’s a bit like a surgeon trying to do an operation using a robot.

they’re not going to allow the robot to do that without knowing exactly what the robot’s doing in the first place. It may be easier that the robot is mechanically doing things that they couldn’t actually access before. So I still think there is a massive human conductor involved in it.

speaker-2 (45:36.238)
Thanks

the trouble with all kind of movements that democratize the industry though isn’t it? It takes a beat to realize the importance of that. I just don’t think you’ll be able to it. Experience and skill and new technologies invite people without experience and skill to take those places. You do need the frame.

speaker-1 (45:48.472)
teacher

speaker-1 (46:01.44)
works though. I can’t the rules if you don’t know the rules is my kind of analogy on that.

speaker-2 (46:07.404)
No, but it depends. What you need ultimately is for the person who’s paying the bills to care about the difference. We beat the drum for craft and beautiful execution and all the rest of it and all the things and the skills and the techniques that you need to get to that level of excellence. Ultimately you need people to care about the difference.

speaker-0 (46:16.108)
Yeah.

speaker-2 (46:34.786)
So that’s what we need to promote as well. It’s like, is the value of the difference. I hope, presumably that comes out in the wash down the road, in engagement. it, you know, yeah, that is how long that takes to be fully appreciated, suppose.

speaker-0 (46:53.762)
Yeah, because on social media, I see huge amounts of craft in really weird places. know, like whether it’s somebody cutting a lawn in a really methodical way, spit, sped up, or somebody, I want somebody clean a rug.

speaker-1 (47:06.766)
One of

speaker-0 (47:09.358)
my god, another one. And they’re mesmerizing. They’re getting, I mean, thousands of likes and whatever else. And I often kind of think, I want to see a Foley artist doing his thing. I want to see a production designer drawing the blueprints. know, when I go to the London College of Communication to see Stanley Kubrick’s archives that are there and for free, anyone can go and go see them.

speaker-1 (47:26.254)
A whole new format, yeah.

speaker-0 (47:38.124)
I bring out the blueprint of the centrifuge and I pour over it going like, my God, somebody like drew this and put this together and then they built the rig and filmed it. And I just think there’s so much, I would much rather watch any of those things than the rug I watched being cleaned for 15 minutes. And yet there I am transfixed by it. so I see craft kind of everywhere on social media. just, it’s weirdly, I don’t see enough of the craft. would love to be watching.

speaker-2 (48:05.751)
Yeah.

speaker-1 (48:06.488)
It’s a really interesting point. We do do a sort of series with the Arrows where we go inside and look at the winners and the environment.

speaker-2 (48:14.67)
That’s true. I think there’s, you’re right, that kind of… Academy published the book last year to celebrate our 40th anniversary. And it became very, well, it became, what became really clear when we were trying to put it together, none of us had done that before, but it, we very quickly realized that the most interesting pages by far were the old storyboards and set drawings and stuff like that. a frame from the ad was really not that interesting.

It really was all about the… Of course, mean, it’s kind obvious, it is that working, it’s the workings behind and seeing the origin. It’s like watching… Has there been a better thing on television for the last 10 years than Get Back? Watching the Beatles, like finding the chords that you know so well. The workings, seeing the workings. It’s great.

speaker-0 (49:04.654)
Yeah, that’s terrific. I mean, you know, this just underscores a point is that, you don’t get to become chairman of the arrows without being incredibly successful and incredibly busy. mean, like, how do you guys balance it? You know, and this is what so wonderfully informs this conversation is you’re both have been in the trenches doing this hard work for a really long time. And you are at companies, you know, Academy and Unconomin that are experiencing these changes in real time. But also like

Where do you find that? Like you’re, you guys are busy. How do you, how do you find the time to do everything that’s required for the errors? I mean, I know, you know, I, I, I, we’re going to mention Lisa here for sure. her time.

speaker-2 (49:46.26)
Lisa is the secret weapon and mean she’s incredible. The whole team are incredible.

speaker-0 (49:52.62)
Lisa Lavender, the MD of the-

speaker-2 (49:55.594)
Yeah, and she really, she’s the powerhouse. And the whole team work incredibly hard.

speaker-1 (50:00.792)
Simon kept saying that as well, reiterating that.

speaker-2 (50:03.806)
You had to get you in.

speaker-1 (50:06.515)
Don’t worry, Lisa does everything. That’s not the case.

speaker-0 (50:09.55)
Yeah.

speaker-2 (50:09.838)
No, I mean, I think you can do as much or as little as you want to in the role. can just be a figurehead and a spokesperson. Charlie Compton did it without Lisa. mean, that really would have been a lot of work.

speaker-0 (50:20.216)
mean, Charlie Crompton

speaker-0 (50:29.006)
I like to have jabs at Charlie. He did a brilliant job.

speaker-2 (50:33.774)
He did do a good job. But you know, being busy, it’s easier to be busy when you’re busy. Do you know what mean? You can take more, a busy person, if you want something done, ask a busy person. It’s just one more thing, one more deadline to hit and finalize and appear. But it’s great, it’s great fun. I’ve thoroughly enjoyed having a distraction from the realities of running a…

speaker-1 (50:57.206)
We tried to Simon go again, you know, for another term. We were like, it’s fine. There’s no rules around

speaker-2 (51:00.386)
Be Trumpian about it.

If it wasn’t the 50th the 50th would be a to draw lines.

speaker-1 (51:07.424)
I mean that’s not

Yeah, no, that’s not true as well. And we’re super excited to step into such.

speaker-2 (51:18.504)
You’re going to twice as much done. There’ll be twice as many changes and advancements. Yeah. Be great.

speaker-0 (51:25.236)
Are you scared, excited?

speaker-1 (51:27.582)
I’m course, always. I’m excited, always excited, always up for the challenge and always wanting to be sort of purposeful and meaningful about the time you give any endeavour. But I think it’s useful to be, you know, a stage where you are still very connected into making. yes, people always say to me, you know, what are you all doing then? And we’re just making, we are making all the time, same

with Academy and I know the same of Dom which is why he’s not here.

speaker-2 (52:01.26)
making something.

speaker-1 (52:03.788)
You know, we’re not people who are here on an advisory capacity. We’re here because we’re in the trenches looking at what the challenges are, what the excitements, the exciting parts of the business are, and really wanting to promote and develop this next generation, I think.

speaker-0 (52:28.342)
You talked about being sort of, you know, fearful and fearful all the time. think what people don’t realize often times is that as a producer, you sort of live your, your optimal level is a low level of fear all the time. That’s actually what you’re chasing. If things get too easy, you go, well, I’ve got to take something just the other side of the horizon. And I think so much of the conversations I have is technologists who don’t understand that that’s a good thing. That’s a feature of the job. That’s something we’re looking for.

They go, well, you don’t have to be afraid anymore. And it goes, well, where’s the fun in that? What’s the point?

speaker-2 (53:03.246)
Where’s the problem solving that’s going to make this work? Where’s the endeavor that you come out the other end of and feel satisfied and satisfied is visible in the end product. The battles are there in the final product. really think.

speaker-0 (53:05.614)
What the

speaker-1 (53:18.158)
Yeah, and it’s a real driver, isn’t it? Is to be at the forefront. People always talk to me about what is it that drives the endeavor. And it’s always to me, it be about representing just the edge of progress. Always. It’s always chasing where it’s going next and where the possibility lies that then fuels or allows you to be free from some of the more anxiety provoking.

speaker-2 (53:46.647)
Yeah.

speaker-1 (53:46.83)
aspects of the job. And it’s nice, I think, to be able to sort of show that you do that. That is also, and it creates some sort of momentum.

speaker-2 (54:04.366)
But also I think that kind of one of the features that makes work stand out or makes work great is you can see where decisions have been made that were the opposite of the easy decisions. The decisions are made specifically to make the work better, even though it made everyone’s lives harder.

speaker-1 (54:24.598)
gosh, don’t we know that.

speaker-0 (54:26.274)
Well, I for No tomorrow, so I know that.

speaker-1 (54:28.718)
I was thinking of the person that had maybe come in at the last moment and yeah, am the best of the creative thinkers will be the ones who will still find a course even if it’s the most difficult course you can try.

speaker-2 (54:43.694)
Totally. But I think great producers do that all the time as well. Yeah. Yeah. Not taking the shortcut.

speaker-0 (54:50.54)
think that that’s what makes me very encouraged looking at the, know, a lot of the talk about AI and whatever else is, I just know it’s in the creative spirit that the moment the horizon is touched, they’re gonna go, but what’s beyond that horizon? What is the next thing? Like, it’s part of the creative act. And I think, I’ve said before that I think that creativity is higher up Maslow’s hierarchy of needs than…

people give it credit for. There’s this attitude generally that it’s like, well, once you’re fat and happy, then you’ll be a creative. And I’m like, you’ve misunderstood. Like all of us earned zero money when we came into these industries because we wanted to create. And we certainly weren’t fat and happy when we came into it. I think it’s, and so I think that that’s what always encourages me is that mentality that’s

that’s to difficulty, that’s inspired by difficulty, that wants to see what’s next and wants to keep scratching and keep clawing until you find whatever hasn’t been done next.

speaker-1 (55:55.527)
Love that. It totally resonates.

speaker-0 (55:57.838)
You know two more questions. I’ve kept you guys too long already looking at Okay great

speaker-1 (56:04.224)
Where’s that Harry Potter outfit?

speaker-1 (56:15.362)
want you to be her mother in law.

speaker-2 (56:19.47)
A new insight into Orlando. Which house were you?

speaker-0 (56:21.442)
Exactly. Hufflepuff. Studious and a little bit dumb. You know, looking at 50 years, I mean, it’s just a great threshold. It’s an incredible body of work. You’ve both produced, you know, a bunch of the work in it. What do you look at? What’s the takeaway when you kind of look at, you know, now we’ve celebrated it as much as we’re going to celebrate it ever before, you know, ever again?

What’s the takeaway?

speaker-1 (56:59.212)
I mean, you don’t have really edit that, Drop. I don’t know, it’s amazing. mean, I think that’s see everybody who have, obviously when we did the Altonet launch, we were all gathered everywhere, everyone to see it. And that’s just an amazing opportunity to mark 50 years. You just really hope that 50 years time, there’s going to be another group.

speaker-0 (57:02.574)
You

speaker-1 (57:27.47)
that represent the whole craft’s plethora of skill set that will stand there and joyously, almost naively be pointing and waiting for theirs to come up and to, not just their own, but to be celebrating what was up on there. That was really extraordinary and slightly humbling.

speaker-2 (57:50.39)
I mean, what I find extraordinary is that there were things that were as resonant from the 70s as from the 2000s. I mean, I think we all know it, but to have that demonstrated so clearly that those things definitely enter the cultural conscience and they don’t leave. Those ads were as fresh in the memory.

I mean, I know we’ve seen them a hundred times, but it doesn’t matter. You know, every frame it’s locked in there. The music’s locked in there. You know, when it’s done well, advertising is a perfect cultural barometer of the time that it’s made because you can date them to within. I mean, you just know because that’s what great advertising does. It reflects culture as it is in that precise moment.

And the engagements, you know, and that’s what, that’s what buries itself in you and sticks. And I hope that, like you say, in 50 years, we’re still able to kind of do that. mean, I was also, I think the general sort of perception would be that that’s less the case with advertising now, but I don’t think that’s true. And I think that some of the more recent stuff in there had all the same attributes.

speaker-1 (59:17.268)
I too, I really do.

speaker-2 (59:19.244)
We’re just not, like I said before, we don’t have a captive audience anymore. We’re not all shouting about the same thing at the same time as we used to, but it’s there. They’re there. Those ads are there that are kind of making inroads into the consciousness and sticking. But yeah, hopefully. I mean, you know, maybe not 50 years, let’s do it every five years.

speaker-1 (59:42.158)
I think that was just really quite special to see that and see that the, as you said, both the cultural shifts and changes, but the ones that stood out as just everything up there, they were all bangers, aren’t they? They were all amazing. I often refer to things which date me. But almost kind of the reference points are as useful now, like how fashion picks up on

genres and types of stylistic inputs and stuff. We do that in how we refer to things. So they provide a great source of reference and knowledge to the generation coming up as well. So I think that’s really helpful and interesting for them. And again, I can’t help but think about the next generation having some of the kind of learnings and knowledge that, you you worry may get a bit lost somewhere when someone doesn’t.

know who Frank Budgeon is, I slightly flinch. There’s some of that that you think there are some really seminal types of work that have defined whole categories of how we make film and make commercials. So I really do hope that we do play a part in shaping that and sharing that knowledge going forward.

speaker-0 (01:01:04.268)
Yeah, because I mean, think that, you like you say, there are so many ads that are sort of timeless. If it weren’t for the four by three versus 69 framing, I think you could show Honda Kog, Guinness Surfer, Cadbury Gorilla, Sony Balls, Hovis at any time. And I think they would feel very now. mean, I think that like Hovis, especially like it’s a really beautiful little film. It’s amazing to me. They don’t…

Other than the ways that they’re made, whether it be film or again, the four by three framing, they don’t age for me really. They live in the mind long past their specific date.

speaker-1 (01:01:46.37)
Totally, and there’s so many derivatives of them. It’s like, as I said, how fashion couture influences High Street. There’s so many derivatives of so many of these styles that have come through from those sort of award-winning pieces that have just resonated through making in general.

speaker-0 (01:02:05.548)
Yeah, looking at the 50 years of work, if there were to be one piece of work where you said, is the one, if I were gonna show somebody who doesn’t know about British advertising, one piece of work that I think epitomizes the greatness of British advertising work over the last 50 years, what would it be?

speaker-2 (01:02:24.344)
You go first.

speaker-1 (01:02:27.992)
For me, would be Guinness-Surfer. Just from all levels of craft, what that storytelling direction, VFX, sound, editing, casting, it’s just, Britishness actually, and audaciousness and originality and writing and client kind of braveness and all of the things that I think

make for really.

astonishing body piece of work that is still has to be up there as much as I’d love to sort of talk about a few others that maybe I made. not at all. No, I just think that piece of work is synonymous with craft and ideation at its best. And just the amount of team effort involved in that piece of work represents so many of the disciplines that we want to propel and celebrate.

that I would constantly refer back to that as the best piece of work from the 50 years. And it just so happens to come from Academy and Jonathan Glazer and Simon Cooper, but I’m…

speaker-2 (01:03:36.238)
So.

speaker-0 (01:03:36.686)
Thanks

speaker-2 (01:03:43.542)
No, my hands weren’t on that. I’m sad to say I was around, I wasn’t. My fingerprints aren’t on it. But that was very eloquently put because I, and so I’m not going to disagree with that, but I, because Guinness is, you know, it’s so often being quoted as being the greatest advert, British advert. And I’ve, and I’ve always personally, I’m like, it’s not even the best Guinness ad, the best ad. Swimmer for me.

does it every time simply because I mean, getting surfer is so conceptual and wonderful and the idea is fantastic. I love that kind of the, it’s a whole feature film in 90 seconds, Swimmer, the complexity of the story being told so perfectly and so eloquently and you know, there isn’t a frame in that that isn’t

speaker-1 (01:04:40.34)
I totally agree.

speaker-2 (01:04:41.494)
necessarily. The editing is perfect. Everything about it is perfect. But that’s maybe just the kind of, you could say the same thing about ice skating priests or something. those 90s…

speaker-1 (01:04:55.288)
The storytelling and the editing, I get you, get you.

speaker-2 (01:04:59.726)
But you’re right because of all the reasons in terms of pushing the boundaries of what was possible at the time was really extraordinary with Surfer.

speaker-1 (01:05:09.942)
And talk about the story behind the making of that, that is extraordinary in its sense.

speaker-2 (01:05:13.844)
And those decisions that made it, you know, exponentially harder for the sake of the craft and certainly more expensive. But in terms of elevating what was on the page, know, was, yeah, I don’t think that, mean, because don’t even, the horses weren’t part of the script, mean, that’s all kind of introduced. so, yeah.

speaker-1 (01:05:38.35)
extraordinary.

speaker-0 (01:05:39.406)
And so is Guinness swimmer your answer or was that just the counterpoint to why it’s?

speaker-2 (01:05:43.79)
It’s sort of a counterpart. Yeah, was trying not to choose an Academy piece of work. actually, and really because I hadn’t done my homework, I only gave it five minutes thought. But the thing that sprung into my mind, it probably again about those decisions made to, you know, just fuck it. Let’s fucking do it. Skoda Cake has always stood out for me as something to show people and go, this is how we do it in Britain.

There were so many ways to make this easier and we fucking did it. We just went and did it. yeah, kudos to Chris for that. But it hasn’t got the aura of sort of being a standard bearer for British advertising. just always appealed to me for its Britishness in its approach, I suppose.

speaker-1 (01:06:31.618)
Yeah, such a culmination of every element. And actually the teamwork that goes behind that, I think is, you know, the sort of the craft and the audaciousness of a client’s ability to go on that journey, you know, from a page to a treatment to an execution is really evident in that piece of work as well. Amazing.

speaker-0 (01:06:57.678)
There’s a cheekiness.

speaker-0 (01:07:02.99)
story.

speaker-2 (01:07:05.784)
Just that the simplicity of an idea of lots of lovely things in it to like, well, yeah, to that journey to an edible car is just wonderful.

speaker-0 (01:07:15.246)
Well, fantastic. Thank you guys so much. Tomorrow night is the British Heirs Awards. We’ll be in suits and frocks.

speaker-1 (01:07:24.832)
I’m expecting to see your little black tuxedo out. Got the full dicky bow tie?

speaker-1 (01:07:35.328)
I’m in a full time tomorrow just to…

speaker-2 (01:07:38.286)
You’ll have to wait and see.

speaker-0 (01:07:39.726)
It’s gonna be a big reveal.

speaker-1 (01:07:43.319)
I’m very excited.

speaker-2 (01:07:44.332)
I of prefer to wear a really, really nice suit than a Moss Bros tux frankly. Because that’s where my tux would come from if I…

speaker-1 (01:07:53.422)
You could go Harry Potter style and go full life.

speaker-0 (01:07:55.79)
Yes, your house robes. assume that you got hung up right next to your really nice… Well, thank you both for doing this. I love you both so much. And the fact that you’d be willing to spend the time doing this and it’s just, appreciate it. What you’ve done the last year is so impressive. I’m so excited to see, mean, you know, I love you so much. I’m so excited to see what you’ve got planned for the year ahead. Thank you. So yes.

speaker-2 (01:07:58.05)
Yes, it’s a-

speaker-2 (01:08:12.59)
It’s great.

speaker-0 (01:08:25.55)
You guys are gonna be brilliant.

speaker-1 (01:08:26.798)
Thank you for inviting us as a collective board to talk about the Arrows. It’s like wonderful to really have a chance to speak about some of the background of where some of this thinking has come from and what we want to do. It’s amazing.

speaker-0 (01:08:41.384)
I was very lucky to be on the Barrow’s board for about three years and it was illuminating and fascinating and I think that now what really feels is that everybody who joins the board always has this kind of, I could do something really great here and I think that that’s been happening steadily ever since I kind of joined the board and Charlie was really one of the people who kind of started a lot of that kind of…

energy of about like, no, we need to be doing more. then Claire and Johnny came in, they did a tremendous job. And it’s just been this kind of inching up of capability and audacity. And it really feels like this year, there’s a sea change, you know, and so many different things coming together. And you’re right, the laying of the foundation of the Young Arrows and its fourth year, you know, these things don’t happen overnight. And everybody who gets on a board of anything goes like, I’m going to really change this thing.

but happens with incremental change. And I just think that where it’s at right now is the most exciting place I think it’s ever been. And it’s really well done. And I’m so, again, so excited to see what you’ve got.

speaker-1 (01:09:52.6)
We’ll thank you, we really appreciate your support and we look forward to pushing forward with all of those exciting plans. Amazing. And it’s lovely to see your own, this amazing podcast taking on so much flight. It’s so enjoyable. It’s so exciting. just love it.

speaker-2 (01:09:53.056)
Thank you.

speaker-0 (01:10:11.88)
By accident. This is supposed to be a very small part of the, mean, listen, this is only our second in-person thing ever. You know, we’re, yeah, we’re growing kind of, you know, sequentially and we’ve been monetized and it’s, it’s, you know, also like we’ve been growing the business, you know? And so I think that this would have stayed a very small thing if it didn’t start taking on a life of its own and have the support of you guys and, and very kind of you guys to, to bring me over to speak at the festival and,

speaker-2 (01:10:19.662)
Okay.

speaker-0 (01:10:40.782)
It’s just, you know, it’s the support of people like you allowing us to do more of this and giving us your time that allows it to work. So thank you. Thank you. Great guys, thank you so much.

speaker-2 (01:10:49.39)
Thank you, mate.