SAG-AFTRA on AI: Who Owns Your Face, Voice & Performance? with Duncan Crabtree-Ireland

Orlando (00:14.738)
sag afra, not just sag.

Orlando (00:20.434)
Great. Well, Dunk and Crabtree Ireland, I’m so excited to have you on the podcast. I’ve I’ve been an admirer of yours for quite some time. so thank you for coming. Thank you for being here.

Duncan Crabtree-Ireland (00:32.277)
thanks so much for inviting and likewise admirer of your podcast, Orlando.

Orlando (00:35.99)
that’s very kind of you. I’m I’m sure it’s undeserving, but I really appreciate it, and I’m so glad to have you here. you are the national executive director and chief negotiator of SAG AFTRA. And, you know, this is our first real episode focused on actors, and I can’t think of a better person to help us understand this moment. You’ve just come off a major win. You’ve delivered a major four-year theatrical agreement with the studios. You avoided another strike, not a small thing.

And secure protections in an area that is moving and incredibly fast. So, first of all, well done.

Duncan Crabtree-Ireland (01:10.024)
thanks so much. You know, I it it is a team effort and so while I get to, you know, have the honor of having the title of chief negotiator, we have a a vast team of negotiating staff and we also are member leaders. in this case our negotiating committee was led by our president, Sean Aston, who you may be familiar with from his many, many acting roles. you know, it’s a it’s a true partnership and and it it literally takes hundreds and hundreds of people on you know, across both sides to get these deals done. But I I feel very, very proud of it and I think

Orlando (01:26.226)
Absolutely.

Duncan Crabtree-Ireland (01:39.787)
that your time will show that this was a really, really strong deal.

Orlando (01:44.656)
Yeah, I mean I think that you know, that seems to be the case. I mean, I think you had ninety-eight percent ratification. I mean, it would seem very unanimous that all of the actors were thrilled with the deal that that you struck.

Duncan Crabtree-Ireland (01:58.453)
Yeah, I mean it was in the it was in the nineties for sure and it is you know w obviously we’re a large union, we have about a hundred and sixty thousand members. nothing, you know, that goes out to such a vast number of people is ever gonna be fully unanimous, but I do think that we made the case in our ratification process for why this was the right deal for this moment in time and that the things that were most important to our members in terms of protecting their careers going forward and frankly dealing with the continuing challenge of AI in this industry.

that that was handled in a way that you know warranted their approval, and I think that that they obviously they ultimately agreed with that.

Orlando (02:36.741)
Yeah. I mean, I think you also pulled off an incredibly impressive thing in that it seems that the studios were very, you know, very happy with the deal as well. I mean, you know, it’s it’s kind of a rare situation to be in. All these things seem to be very adversarial and somebody always feels like they got a bad deal. But I think that the the, you know, the overall feeling from both sides was that you that you guys pulled off something that really made everybody feel comfortable.

Duncan Crabtree-Ireland (03:02.91)
Well, I mean I think ultimately that that is the goal. And you know, there’s a saying in negotiation circles that, you know, if everybody leaves a little bit unhappy, then that’s a sign of a good negotiation. I’m sure the same could be true for everybody being a little bit happy. I mean, the companies really wanted the four year term. the it was clear even before negotiation started due to leaks in the press that that was a high priority to them. it’s not something we would normally consider or normally do because there is a long, long history of three year deals in this industry.

Not just by us, but by all of the unions. But I think under these circumstances, it’s understandable why they wanted it, especially after their experience with the dual Writers Guild and SAG After Strikes in 2023. And also just because the industry is in a bit of a tumultuous moment right now. And I think the stability that that brings is something that they really valued. To their credit, they were prepared to put things on the table that I think would have been very difficult to achieve without their cooperation.

But also think that the aftermath of 2023 has actually caused a bit of a reset in the relationship, certainly between SAGAFTRA and the studios and streamers, in a positive way. And I remember somebody asked me, you know, y’all were so harsh towards these CEOs and towards the companies during the strike. Like, how can you turn around and work with them after? And you know, my response is, you know, this is an almost, you know, almost a hundred-year relationship between this union and these companies, many of them, many of these companies have been around in some form.

since then. And you know, it’s like a family it’s like a family problem. We know that we our members need to continue working for them, our members want to continue working for them. It’s not about you know burning bridges or anything like that. It is about doing what you have to do to get past troubled points in your relationship so that it can work better for everybody. And I think that is what ultimately was accomplished in 2023.

Orlando (04:42.385)
Yeah.

Orlando (04:56.401)
Well, I think what you’ve nailed is certainly, you know, in preparing for this podcast, I spoke to lots of people at studios and actors and actresses. and one of the things that that they all felt about you, you’ve been doing this for quite some time, is that you don’t see it as quite so adversarial. And you see these negotiations as you know, a moment where the interests are aligned and do overlap, and you don’t treat everybody like it’s a it’s a fight. And

I know that the studios wanted, I think, five years, you guys wanted three, you kind of came together. It was it really felt like you understood the moment that everybody is trying to get through this together.

Duncan Crabtree-Ireland (05:37.968)
Well, certainly clear. I mean, it’s it’s always the case that our members don’t want a strike. Our members want to work, they don’t want to be on strike. And so any way that we can make an agreement that is fair, that is the right agreement, and avoid, you know, any kind of disruption in job opportunities is I mean, that’s the ultimate goal. The strike is a tool that hopefully is rarely used and historically is rarely used when, you know, in twenty twenty-three when had this this big strike against the studios and streamers, it was the first time in forty years that we’ve been on strike.

against them and you know hopefully it won’t we won’t need another one for 40 more years or longer. but I I do also think that sometimes you get into a place where there is no other path forward and that was what ultimately happened in 23. But you know these companies I mean when we look at the broader constellation of threats and challenges to our members and our industry you know the biggest and most dangerous threats are coming from outside not inside the

industry. Yes, the there’s mergers that are potential threats. There are all kinds of things that happen, acquisitions and stuff like that and other business practices, anti-union practices sometimes. But with the evolution of technology, with there being places in the world where there is not a tradition of having any respect for workers’ rights in the creative industries or anywhere else for that matter, these are challenges that we have to face and sometimes the best way to face those is together.

Orlando (06:57.889)
Mm. Yeah.

Orlando (07:04.697)
Yeah. What what do people need to understand about what actors are facing right now?

Duncan Crabtree-Ireland (07:11.512)
Well, I think one thing that that just the general public probably doesn’t understand is how hard of a career it is to be a professional performer of any kind, including actors, including singers, really everyone who are our members. And the reason why I think that’s not well understood is because you know, the sort of entertainment industry in general, Hollywood, just to d you know, shorthand it that way, sort of thrives on presenting this image of glamour, this image of, you know, you know, it’s sort of like how people talk

About on social media, everyone’s lives look amazing because they only show the good stuff, right? Or whatever. similarly, that’s the image given by the entertainment industry. But most of our members, out of that 160,000 members, the vast majority of them, you know, are working class people who are just trying to make a living. It’s a very hard thing. For anyone who has a sort of a regular type of job, just imagine if you had to go on job interviews every day, not just between jobs, but for your entire career. And if you got rid of

Orlando (07:45.105)
Mm. Yeah.

Duncan Crabtree-Ireland (08:11.252)
rejected from ninety, ninety-five, ninety-nine percent of the jobs that you applied for and you had to do it every single day. I mean the job is getting the job in a lot of ways and it’s really, really hard.

And and you have to have a certain kind of passion for doing the work to want to even go through that process. So I have a really, really deep respect for for performers because they just put it all on the line. They really have to love it and wanna do it. But then when I think about the performances that have meant something in my life, whether it’s on screen, whether it’s in music, whether it’s you know, even in

Hosting or broadcast journalism, I mean, there are moments that I think about that were so meaningful. And if we didn’t have people who were willing to go through that, we wouldn’t benefit from that. We wouldn’t have those special moments in our in our lives that come along with that. So I so that’s the first thing. But then in terms of the technical details, I mean, right now there is a retrenchment that has been going on. There are a lot of the sort of level of employment, the number of jobs available has declined here in the United States.

there’s various reasons for that. I think it’s kind of a a perfect storm of various economic pieces that came together that have caused that. We’re gradually looking to ramp that back up and try to get the companies to produce more here in the United States and to do that through various means, but it is a challenging time and the threats of you know technological development and AI certainly also add a real concern, not just for short term, but for long term. what’s the future? I know.

No, I’ve been rambling on, but let me just say one last thing. I’ll just say when in 2023, during our strike, I was on a picket line outside of Disney with some teenage actors. and I mean I’m talking like 13-year-olds, right? And they were worried about the future of their career as actors because of the threat of AI. And I mean, when 13-year-olds are worried about the future of their chosen career as an artist, that is that’s it that tells you something. It’s something we really have to focus on.

Orlando (09:54.331)
No I

Orlando (10:10.107)
Yeah.

Orlando (10:19.311)
Yeah. Yeah. And it’s, you know, half of it is obviously performance and and excitement and artistic expression. The other half is having access to healthcare. You know, it’s it there are real realities, not just in what you do, but into the acting profession, is that you have to act a certain amount. There has to be enough opportunity so that you can remain a member of SAG and have access to healthcare.

Duncan Crabtree-Ireland (10:43.837)
Yeah, that’s so true. And I mean, you know, I I do think it’s a bit of a shortcoming of our healthcare system in the United States that people are so dependent upon employment to be able to have access to any kind of reasonably priced health care. it felt like we made some progress with the you know, Affordable Care Act and the exchanges, and it feels like recently some of that progress has been rolled back in a really unfortunate way. One of our big jobs is to make sure that people who are, you know, really working professional performers in the industry have access to health coverage since it’s

quite usual for working performers to work for different employers almost every day or every week. So it’s hard to like get a healthcare through a normal means. So we do have a health plan, but like you said, you know, only a a a portion of our members make enough money in a year to qualify for the health plan. And so there’s an ongoing challenge. Likewise with retirement. A lot of people don’t think about it, but you know if you end up working for hundreds of different companies over your career, it’s hard to build up any kind of retirement. And our system

Isn’t really well designed for people to build their own retirements outside of work. So we also have two pension plans, one in the Screen Actors Guild side one on the After Side. they will be coming together soon in the future. But those those plans are essential to people having some kind of retirement and the ability to, you know, to really plan for the future. So it’s a critical part of what we do.

Orlando (12:09.509)
Yeah. Yeah, I think that that’s a key thing. It’s like, you know, when people think about actors being fearful, it, you know, it it’s because of real structural realities in needing healthcare that, you know, and and those and needing support you know, outside of their freelance life. And so I think that that that often gets missed in and you think acting, you hear fear, and you just go like, okay, well, what are they afraid about? They’re not gonna get another.

you know, another opportunity to be a voice for this or a face of that. And it’s like, well, no, actually, there’s a human functional reality of raising a family and and being a working jobbing actor that that they have to consider. And and that’s, you know, what you do negotiating on their behalf to make sure that they can come out with an equitable equitable deal.

Duncan Crabtree-Ireland (12:57.776)
Yeah, that’s that’s very it’s very true. And I think being, you know, concerned about how you’re going to take care of your family, pay your bills, et cetera, is an inevitable question when you are an actor. for most of our members. Having said that, you know, I would just also say actors are some of the most resilient people that I’ve ever met. I mean, many of them consciously put together different types of employment that are complementary so that when you know one employment isn’t available, they’ve got another one as a backup.

Up. They, you know, they really figure out a way to make a life that is resilient against the inevitable ups and downs of this kind of industry. And you know, I will just say some of the actors I know are some of the most courageous people I’ve met in my life because because, you know, they say that one of the one of the things that people are most scared about is like public speaking, right? For example. And and I can understand why, but

Orlando (13:50.353)
Uh-huh.

Duncan Crabtree-Ireland (13:54.971)
To me, what would be even scarier when you think about it is putting forward the kind of hard on your sleeve open emotion that performers, actors in particular, also singers have to do, because makes you so vulnerable. And so to really feel figure out how you can be vulnerable in front of just

total strangers on a daily basis and maybe tens or hundreds of thousands or millions of them like that is a that’s a very special thing to learn and to figure out how to do. So I’m I’m in admiration of it.

Orlando (14:27.087)
Yeah, me too. Me too. It’s you know, I just want to kind of contextualize the environment in which you had these negotiations and that that, you know, this now four-year deal, we’re gonna see so much change in the next four years. But it seems to me that that there’s this perfect storm that’s been happening over many years. But the moment AI entered the chat, it became a perfect storm. Where over the last decade, streaming and the disruption to

Distribution fundamentally changed the economics of the business, especially for performers. It changed how work was distributed, how success was measured, how actors were paid, not getting residuals and things like that. Now AI introduces kind of a different kind of disruption. It’s not yet replaced human performance at scale, but it raises the possibility that a performance, a face, a voice, or a body could be captured, altered, reproduced, or reused in new ways.

How should everybody understand how these two separate disruptions are coming together right now?

Duncan Crabtree-Ireland (15:28.973)
Yeah, that’s such a great question, Orlando. Really well, I think the first thing to understand is probably if they hadn’t been sort of

Coinciding in the way they did, maybe the 2023 strike wouldn’t have happened in that way because both of those issues were key issues in that strike, and they’re both very thorny. the reality is that that streaming has really changed the industry a lot in various ways. I mean, to be fair, for a period of time it resulted in a significant increase in the number of job opportunities because so many streamers were chasing original content as their way of building their market share that we saw a tremendous

Increase and we knew that wasn’t gonna last forever. we cautioned. Yeah. No, I think it’s got it has gone back down. I mean that’s up that is a significant part of the reason why we have this downturn in production. It’s not the only reason.

Orlando (16:11.185)
Has it gone back down or has it just stabilized and now we’re just used to a new normal?

Orlando (16:22.545)
Two pre streaming levels or is there just a new normal?

Duncan Crabtree-Ireland (16:26.259)
Well, it is I don’t I’m hoping and I don’t believe it’s a new normal. It is below what we view as sort of the natural sort of normal level of production by by a noticeable margin. But and we we are seeing early signs of an upward trend. but they’re very early signs. So it you know, it’s a little hard to say, and I know everybody would love to know the answer to that. I wish I could definitively say that the one advantage we have is we do see

Data on the union side that are not public information but that encompass activity across the whole industry. So we you do sometimes get a little bit of a preview of this as we’re seeing benefit plan contributions come in and things like that that give us a sort of a macro vision of that. But I do think that that’s what we’re really hoping to see is this you know gradual return to what will be a normal level of production, and then we can build upon that with.

Things like hopefully getting a federal tax incentive, which is something we’ve wanted forever, which has never really happened. States have done it, foreign countries certainly have done it. I mean, one of the things that’s been such a challenge here in the U.S. is that other countries have been quite effective recently in using their incentive programs to lure away production that probably would have happened here absent that, and that’s had a real impact, especially on our members, and in the case of SAGAFTRA, on our members who don’t travel with production.

Members do travel with productions quite regularly, but a lot of our members like background actors, sometimes stunt performers, day players, various other categories of performer typically don’t travel to foreign production locations with those projects, and so that has a real impact on jobs. But but to your point about streaming, it’s not only the question of of residuals, although there are residuals on streaming and they’ve been improved significantly over the years, including in twenty twenty.

But it’s also the pace of production. these streaming shows, you know, are typically eight to ten episodes per season. Their seasons were spread way further apart than it used to be when network television was the primary mode or even basic cable. So we’ll see somebody who before, let’s say if you were on a network series, maybe if you were in all shows produced, maybe you would be in 22 or 23 episodes in a nine-month period, and then you’d have a three-month hiatus, and then the next season would start and you’d be back to work. Now it’s

Orlando (18:40.251)
Mm-hmm.

Duncan Crabtree-Ireland (18:55.619)
If you’re in all shows produced, you might be in eight episodes or maybe ten episodes and then have a 24 month hiatus and then come back to work. And so you might still be making the same amount of money per episode, or maybe even a little more, but you know, your salary times let’s say 10 and then spread that out over three years versus your you know salary times twenty two and that covers you for a year. So you can imagine that is a huge challenge. And it’s been you know hard for both control.

Orlando (19:02.351)
Yeah. Yeah.

Orlando (19:12.817)
Mm-hmm.

Orlando (19:23.493)
Yeah.

Duncan Crabtree-Ireland (19:25.492)
contractual reasons and just practical reasons for folks to get work in those gaps because either they’re not allowed to under their contract or they have a hard time getting someone else to commit because they know the first priority has to be going back to their their show when it’s ready to start. So these are things that we’ve taken on. yeah.

Orlando (19:30.95)
Yeah.

Orlando (19:39.014)
Mm.

Is that an area where you guys are pushing back significantly? That seems like a real a real sag point to poke him in the eye with, you know? It’s just you can’t you can’t have a first reserve on someone that you’re only booking once every two years.

Duncan Crabtree-Ireland (19:49.488)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Duncan Crabtree-Ireland (19:55.898)
Exactly. And so that is exactly the kind of pushback we’ve been doing starting in twenty twenty two. We hit hard on that with all of the streaming companies in twenty twenty two in a separate negotiation we have with one of the companies, twenty-three, obviously the big strike that was a big part of that. And even again this year, we’ve continued to make adjustments in the rules about how long people can be held and what they can do in the interim so that it’s just more fair. But economically it’s a you know, it is a it is a big thing and like you said, we’ve had to look for new ways to make

Orlando (20:16.325)
Yeah. Great.

Duncan Crabtree-Ireland (20:25.821)
Sure, people can make a living and have a career in streaming. And one one part of that was our streaming bonus fund concept from 2023 that we expanded on again this year, which was really meant to sort of capture something that was missing from the streaming residuals structure that used to exist. I mean, it used to be if you were on a really successful television series, let’s say on network television, you would then end up getting residuals not just from network, but you’d get residuals when it went onto basic cable or into syndication or when it was sold on DVD.

Orlando (20:54.981)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Duncan Crabtree-Ireland (20:55.743)
DVDs or whatever, streaming platforms tend to just keep their stuff on their platform and it doesn’t go anywhere. And so even if you had a really successful show, you might not see any benefit from that. And so we negotiated for an additional residual essentially called the streaming bonus. And so if you’re on a very successful show based on the metrics that we agreed on, then you get significant additional payments to account for the fact that your show is helping contribute to the success of that whole platform.

Orlando (21:01.083)
Yeah.

Duncan Crabtree-Ireland (21:25.586)
platform.

Orlando (21:26.469)
Yeah, that’s great. And does it is it also true, let’s say you’re in a TV show movie, it’s then licensed from the people who produced it to another platform. Let’s say they’ve they’ve licensed it out to Tubi or whatever else. Do they get some sort of remuneration from that kind of exchange as well, the company to company payment?

Duncan Crabtree-Ireland (21:46.404)
Yeah, they they can. It depends on exactly what the nature of the of the license is. But let’s say you’re in a made-for-streaming show that’s you know, produced from one of the streaming platforms. I mean it’s an interesting web of relationships, right? So there’s there’s like take a studio that doesn’t have their own platform, like let’s say Sony. So Sony produces a project, they produce a number of really great projects, it’s licensed to a streamer. it kind of depends on what the nature of that initial license is. Did they give all the rights to that streamer and does that streamer now own or does Sony still

Still own it and they only license it for a period of time. Depending on the nature of that deal, then the subsequent deals get monetized a certain way. But yeah, whenever it goes to a new platform, there is typically a payment for that in one form or another. It can either be a percentage of the license fee, or if it’s a streaming platform, sometimes it’s a fixed amount of money for a while. But there is a there is meant to be compensation for that. What doesn’t trigger as much sort of payment is when it just stays.

on the platform that was originally on. There are residuals for that, but they’re not at the level that they ought to be for the kind of especially for very successful projects that really drive subscribers to to platforms and that’s what we were looking to account for.

Orlando (23:00.869)
Yeah, and that’s one of the things is my understanding that Artist Equity, the Ben Affleck and Matt Damon’s company is is pushing for is not just for actors but crew to be part of a bonus structure if a film that they make for a streamer hits certain streaming metrics. It will very similar to first dollar gross for you know or or receipts on you know feature theatrical films as used to happen in the nineties and early two thousands.

That there would be this kind of bonus structure that that would remunerate Cast and Crew.

Duncan Crabtree-Ireland (23:35.787)
Yeah, I I think it’s fantastic what they’ve done and you know the the structures that have been bargained for by the unions, you know, it is a challenge because when you’re bargaining as a union, you are bargaining across all of these companies simultaneously and across all productions.

Orlando (23:49.691)
So many different formats and yeah.

Duncan Crabtree-Ireland (23:52.084)
Right. And so anything that you do, these companies are looking at as this applies to everything. So the economic impact is you know multiplied by the magnitude of all the work that they’re doing. I do think that where talent of any type have been able to use their leverage to supplement that for other people, I’m an admirer of that. we’ve seen that across, you know, multiple sort of industries. You gave the example, you know, of Ben Ben Matt Ben Athlick and Matt Damon, but another example

different part of the industry that I would point out to you would be Taylor Swift, who quite notably did something similar with respect to the record labels. In her case, her record label was Universal at that point. As part of her deal to join that label, she negotiated a deal that they would pay out not only to her but to their other artists as well, a share of the money they were making off of the sale of their ownership interest in Spotify because the artist’s work really built that platform.

Orlando (24:47.686)
Yeah.

Duncan Crabtree-Ireland (24:51.997)
and its value. And so so there have been times where artists have really been able to use their individual bargaining power and leverage to help others and I think that’s exactly the kind of thing that union should celebrate because that’s what we’re all here for, acting collectively in the interest of everyone.

Orlando (25:11.663)
Yeah, listen, totally agree. And and I’m I’m surprised that this is the first time Taylor Swift’s ever come up on this podcast. I’m I’m surprised I don’t bring her up more often. I’m I mean, j just because A her cultural relevance, B I’m a massive fan. But but I’m glad you you you broke the seal on that. I think that’s great.

Duncan Crabtree-Ireland (25:19.168)
really?

Duncan Crabtree-Ireland (25:26.398)
Well yeah, I mean clearly

Well, happy to do it. she’s a proud SAGAFTRA member, and you know, we’re like I said, I’m just really appreciative of any of our members who are able to do that. And by the way, another, you know, example of that is there are a couple of fairly high profile performers who have helped drive production in the US by essentially insisting that for series that they are leading that the production has to happen in the US. And so you know, Kerry Washington example of that, you know, Noel Wiley.

So I think that these are people who you know sure they’re doing well for themselves I presume, but they’re also doing things that really can benefit the the community and and of performers or even just all industry workers. So that’s fantastic.

Orlando (26:03.536)
Yeah.

Orlando (26:17.775)
Yeah. Well, I also thought that that was the, you know, one of the key insights that Reese Witherspoon had with with Hello Sunshine was there are all these fabulous actresses, most of whom want to be home when their kids get home from school or at least have some sort of evening with them. They’re fabulous, they’re wonderful, they’re in LA, they’re in New York. We want to package projects with them and then respect, you know, where they live and how they live so that we can, you know, take advantage of.

this fabulous talent that seems to have, you know, that seems to have been told for quite some time, well, you’re gonna raise a kid and and so you’ll come back when you’re done with that. and I always thought that that was really admirable and so smart.

Duncan Crabtree-Ireland (27:00.754)
Yeah, me me too. And I think, you know, w when you can when you are somebody who has the kind of influence and power that you can drive that from the production side as well as from the, you know, the worker side, I think that that has huge impact and also sets a great example for other, you know, other companies to say, Hey, this isn’t, you know, this isn’t an outlier. This is a good way of treating your employees and the people who really make your business successful. So so yeah, and there’s and

there’s just so many of these challenges. I mean one of the things that I you know had never thought we would have to worry about but we did have to bargain over it was the fact that as we’ve seen a retrenchment in the availability of health care for re reproductive health care in some states as well as transgender health care we’ve had to bargain provisions in our contracts to help make sure that when our members were working on location in one of those states that they have the right to get back to somewhere where they can get the appropriate health care that they would get if they were

working at home. And so, you know, there’s all kinds of aspects of this that really can impact people in very profound ways.

Orlando (28:09.039)
Yeah, absolutely. You know, that gets into a question I have about, you know, the obviously so much many of these technologies are moving so fast. I think it was a huge win to get the four-year deal. Is there a concern? I mean, with w what technology might come out tomorrow? What what major social change might happen from, you know, the the the Supreme Court or a new administration that might have to be responded to?

Is that a concern at all?

Duncan Crabtree-Ireland (28:40.154)
Sure. I mean, you know, we didn’t enter into a longer deal blindly. We thought very carefully about what the implications of it would be. And we were willing to do it only if you know, what was delivered in the agreement in exchange was worth it. ultimately we concluded that it was. I guess what I would just say is number one, the way we’ve been approaching AI technology is not highly technology dependent, and that’s on purpose. that’s because what we’ve done is baked

Into our contract, sort of principles of how that how technology in general can be adopted and used so that changes in capabilities or changes in the technical method of doing something don’t make the provisions obsolete. So, for example, one of the most important aspects of our digital replication provisions, which this is for using someone’s image, likeness, or voice to recreate a digital double of them and then use that in a production. One of the core elements of that.

That is what we call informed consent, which means that in order to you have to get someone’s consent in order to do it, and that consent can’t just be a generic blanket consent. It has to contain the in the language we use is a reasonably specific description of the intended use. And if it doesn’t contain that, then the consent is not valid and can’t be used. So you know, regardless of what technology you use to create that digital replica, if you use generative AI, if you use non generative AI, if you use CGI,

Any form of the creation of a digital replica triggers those same requirements. And so that is you know something that we did on purpose to make sure that it didn’t become you know obsolete in a time period. Having said that, we do have to evolve provisions time to time, and generative AI is a great example of that because its capabilities have expanded so much in the last you know, since between 2023 and 2026. And we did do that, and in this

Orlando (30:19.537)
Very smart.

Orlando (30:37.585)
So you can create riders to your agreement in you know, in in times of significant change or or in response to things. Okay. Mm-hmm.

Duncan Crabtree-Ireland (30:44.0)
Well, I don’t want to overstate it because typically we do not reopen the agreement during the the period of time. So usually what we’re doing is doing that when we renegotiate. There have been, there’s been one time I can think of in the last decade where we have reopened the agreement in the middle and made a change to it. But typically what we’re doing is we’re looking to make sure that our provisions are long-lasting enough that if there’s something about them we need to tweak, we can wait to the next contract cycle to do it. And I guess the

sort of bottom line also I would say is I think everyone accepts and acknowledges that at the very least we were going to have a three-year agreement. So we’re talking about one additional year, which you know a lot can happen in a year, but it is only a year. And it takes us about somewhere between six to seven months to prepare for negotiating this contract in the first place because we do a lot of grassroots work. Like when we when we prepare for this contract, we have meetings all across the country with all of our members. It

It takes us months to to conduct all those meetings to bring together all the input and turn that into proposals. I think last cycle we had over 60 meetings about the just from memb members at large to tell us about their experiences and the contract and what they wanted. So you know, I think with that process in mind, we’ll be ready to renegotiate this at the four-year mark and we’ll have the benefit of that experience. But to get that, we were adamant that we had to have

AI provisions that we felt would would carry us through that window. And that was most clearly focused on synthetics. generative AI created not replicas of actual performers, because I think we’re pretty we feel pretty confident about where we are in that, but there was a lot more that we needed in synthetics than we had going into that negotiation, and there was real concern about you know what does what does Tilly Norwood mean for the future, and wanted to really create protections about that, and I think we got

got very significant limitations on the company’s use of synthetics. And as of today, you know we have a provision on our contract that says that any of the signatory companies that create a synthetic performance have to notify us of that fact in advance. And as of today no one has done so. So I think the cu the companies are moving slowly and cautiously with regard to things like synthetics.

Orlando (33:06.853)
Yeah. That’s what we’ve seen as well. I mean, I think that, you know, the there’s a lot of prognosticating about what likely will happen in this sort of, you know, lowest common denominator thinking of, well, if they can do everything with all AI, they will do everything with all AI. And that’s just not been our experience of working and talking to the studios, that they are going to this very much eyes open. I think there’s a lot of agreement.

on what is sort of inappropriate. and I think a lot of yeah, and I think a lot of them are just not running into this very quickly. what one of the things I will ask you to define, because you brought up both, is the difference between digital replica and synthetic performance or synthetic performer.

Duncan Crabtree-Ireland (33:52.946)
Yeah, it’s a it is a important a really important distinction for us because digital replica is when you and right now a lot of times when this is done, they do it by scanning a performer. So a performer will go stand in a special rig and these very high quality images will be taken in a three hundred and sixty degree environment to create a digital replica that then can be Yes, exactly. Right. Right, right.

Orlando (34:13.605)
Yeah, CAA Vault is doing that, you know, to help artists control their likeness. And then individual productions will do it too, similar to the Matrix.

Duncan Crabtree-Ireland (34:22.841)
Exactly. And so that is a replica of a person and so under our contract, what that means is number one, the person has to give consent for any kind of use of that replica. That consent, as I mentioned before, has to be informed consent, so they have to have a reasonably specific description of the intended use. They have to be compensated for that. So the way our contract works, the minimum compensation for that is essentially based on what it would have what you would have been paid for a human being to do the equipment.

equivalent amount of work. So there’s a sort of a a measurement that’s made of that and that triggers a minimum payment. It’s negotiable, so obviously people who would have negotiated for more could negotiate for more. And and there’s just a lot of limitations on how that’s used. We view digital replicas like that as sort of an extension of the human performer because they control it, they know what’s being done with it and they get compensated for its use. So we’re not, you know, pro or con it.

Orlando (35:20.017)
If it’s a star and they do one deal for the entire project, can that just be wrapped up or do you do a separate calculation on any days that are synthetic? Sorry, digital replica.

Duncan Crabtree-Ireland (35:29.86)
So

Yeah, it depends upon the nature of their contract, but if they are being compensated at a certain level in our contract it’s called Schedule F, which means you have to make a certain amount of money for the project. If you are receiving more than that threshold, then you have a lot of freedom to develop your own contract terms, including the terms for the use of digital replicas, in terms of the compensation for it, like what can be included. If you’re not at that level, then then you don’t

you know, then it is treated as like additional work time based on either scale, which is our minimums, or based on whatever your negotiated rate is if it’s higher than scale. So it it’s you know it kind of works like it was you. so if if a if a star’s contract would have like let’s say you’re you know the star of a motion picture and you’re making multiple millions of dollars for that, right? Then if you get called back to do a reshoot or something like that, that’s typically not, you know, an extra payment, nor would it be an extra payment for your

Digital replica to do that. On the other hand, if you are working on a daily or weekly basis, then you would get paid for your digital replica to do that separately. But I think the most important point about all of this is digital replicas are like, you know, they’re the avatar in a way of the human performer. They are under the control of the human performer ultimately, and we view them as in that bucket. And we distinguish that very clearly from synthetics. So synthetics are like,

If you use a generative AI tool to just create a performance, and the character in that performance appears to be a person, but it is not an actual person that ever existed. It’s been put together by that AI model based on training data, could be hundreds of thousands, millions of images or other things that it’s trained on, and then it’s just output this character. We are pretty careful, try try really hard not to use the term.

Duncan Crabtree-Ireland (37:30.502)
Synthetic performer. We try not to because we don’t want to sort of anthropomorphize this character. And so, and it’s hard because you know, even you know, the probably the most prominent example of this type of generated character is Tilly Norwood. And you know, it can be hard to not refer to that character with like pronouns of a human or whatever, but I think it’s really important because people sometimes forget that even though this may look like a person, it

Orlando (37:53.072)
Yeah.

Duncan Crabtree-Ireland (38:00.532)
this this is not a person. This this this character has no actual backstory, no actual experience, has never actually interacted with or engaged with any human in any meaningful way, and doesn’t really exist. And so you know, so we are very concerned about the replacement of human creativity and human jobs, to be perfectly straightforward about it, by these types of synthetics. And that’s one of the reasons why we have

Orlando (38:02.801)
Mm-hmm.

Orlando (38:06.609)
Mm-hmm.

Orlando (38:11.184)
Yeah.

Orlando (38:16.197)
Yeah.

Duncan Crabtree-Ireland (38:28.816)
Bargained really significant restrictions. So in this new contract, the rule is that if any of the companies want to use a synthetic performance, A, they have to notify us in advance. B, they have to be able to and they have agreed that there is a principle favoring human employment, that humans should be the ones working in film, television, and streaming, not digital synthetics. However, if they can demonstrate that a synthetic would deliver significant

Orlando (38:52.443)
Yeah. Yeah.

Duncan Crabtree-Ireland (38:58.719)
Additional value to the production, then they are allowed to use it under that circumstance. But I note that significant additional value is in comparison not only to a human, but also to a digital replica. So they have to be able to say why do we need a synthetic instead of either a human or a digital replica? And you know, I think especially because that comparison against there’s a comparison there against a digital replica, there’s not going to be technical reasons, there’s not going to be safety.

Orlando (39:18.118)
Mm-hmm.

Duncan Crabtree-Ireland (39:28.649)
Reasons, there’s not going to be any of those reasons why you need a synthetic instead of a digital replica, because for all those purposes, a digital replica can do the same things that a synthetic can do. The difference being it represents a real human performer, someone who is involved in the process of determining what that replica does, and who’s being fairly compensated for that use. So to us, that that is a better way to help protect human creative involvement in the industry and to help make sure that we don’t kind of

Orlando (39:38.961)
Mm-hmm.

Duncan Crabtree-Ireland (39:58.52)
kill the goose that laid the golden egg by turning all of the incredible human performances, human creativity into algorithmic outputs. And frankly, if you know there is some trend in the area of micro dramas, especially coming from other countries where some of those are just AI generated. And you can tell, you know, it is not comparable to the kind of creative work that that humans do. And so I think you know it’s important that we not

Orlando (40:07.088)
Mm-hmm.

Orlando (40:24.774)
Yeah.

Duncan Crabtree-Ireland (40:28.373)
conflate them. And if I may just conclude my rant by saying, and I think this is true more broadly, not just for our industry, because when you think about some of the greatest harms coming out of AI, a lot of it has to do with us not keeping a clear line of division in our minds about what is human and what is algorithmic. And so when teenagers fall in love with a chatbot, it’s because they aren’t maintaining that distinction. And even those chatbots are designed

Orlando (40:34.789)
Yeah.

Duncan Crabtree-Ireland (40:58.263)
Designed to make them feel like they’re having a human interaction that’s really not a human interaction. So I think it’s something worth thinking about more broadly in our society as to do we really want to create a bunch of you know AI-driven robots and other tools that are so humanoid in nature, and does that really serve us as well as it might be to not do that? So we’ll we’ll see where that goes.

Orlando (41:03.163)
Yeah.

Orlando (41:23.536)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. Right.

Orlando (41:31.93)
Right. Yeah, I mean, you know, I texted quite a few actor friends before we we came on here and and other than quite a f one of one of the ladies saying anything that she has to do in heels should be considered a stunt. and so that’s something for twenty thirty. you know, you you put it down in your notepad to bring up with the studios. but she and and one of the things that kept coming up for multiple people was what what does

Duncan Crabtree-Ireland (41:48.243)
I hear that.

Orlando (42:01.627)
significant value mean in this context? Because I think that was their most of the actors I spoke to, some were were series regulars, some were jobbing actors, some were were were struggling actors. And yeah, and they all kind of said, we’re the one thing we’re unsure about is where how what the definition of significant value is and how that will impact the actors.

Duncan Crabtree-Ireland (42:27.591)
Yeah, no, I and I totally get that because I mean the definition of it is the ordinary dictionary definition of those words, but sort of like how do you then apply that? And the answer to that is, you know, ultimately the the way that’s going to work is the company has to come to the union in advance and say, here’s what we want to do. they have to give us the necessary information. Then that starts a a period of negotiation between the company and the union on a project-by-project basis, where we look at what they’ve given us and we

We evaluate, and when I say we, it’s not only me and our staff, but also our we have a committee of actors who oversee this contract, and so they’d be involved in it as well. And we look at that and say, do we agree that the proposed use of a synthetic delivers significant additional value? If we agree with it, then we negotiate over what the terms are under which it can be used, what kind of compensation is going to be paid, to whom it’s gonna be paid, how we’re gonna make sure that we’re not building a a practice that under

Undermines the economics of the industry. But if we don’t agree that it’s significant additional value, then we have the right to file an arbitration about that, and that then triggers a process where a neutral arbitrator looks at all those circumstances and determines do they feel that it delivers significant additional value? And if not, then the arbitrator can award damages of any amount against the company for violating that provision. And if that happens

You know, I think one of the things that’s very clear is studios and streamers do not like uncertainty in connection with their productions. They they crave certainty. This is one of the reasons why they wanted a four-year deal or even a longer deal than that. having certainty and predictability is very important to them for various reasons. And so I think really

It is going to be a rare exception, not the rule, that a company would go forward with using a synthetic when the union is objecting to it and saying that they’re not delivering that significant additional value. Over time, if we have cases that go to arbitrators, that will help us further define what exactly constitutes a significant, significant additional value. But in these kinds of negotiations, sometimes you have to find common ground, and sometimes that involves selecting language and words that both sides can get on board with.

Duncan Crabtree-Ireland (44:49.505)
And I think in this case our main objective was to make sure that the use of synthetics did not become a growing practice in the industry. Prior to this negotiation, the only rules about synthetics were that they had to give us notice of doing it and that they had to bargain over the economic consideration for it, if any. There was no none of this arbitration process, there was none of the standards, no significant additional value standards.

Orlando (44:49.958)
Yeah.

Orlando (45:12.753)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Duncan Crabtree-Ireland (45:19.408)
No presumption of human performance standards. So all of that has been added in this one cycle. And I think it as much as I understand the desire to have something even more concrete, I think this will prove to be sufficient to make sure that this doesn’t become a common practice. Might there be a few projects that use synthetics during the next four years? It’s possible. But I really don’t think it’s going to take off given these limitations, at least not within the companies that are covered by our collective.

Orlando (45:24.625)
Mm-hmm.

Orlando (45:36.806)
Yeah.

Orlando (45:41.169)
Mm-hmm.

Duncan Crabtree-Ireland (45:49.398)
Bargaining agreement. We do have some public policy work to do on this front so that it can have a wider application and we’re working on that.

Orlando (45:49.979)
Mm-hmm.

Orlando (45:57.498)
Yeah, I’d like to get into some of the policy stuff in a second. Because you know, just to kind of stay here, it feels like so much of the fear is around this, you know, and and some of it, you know, I I don’t think that we’re seeing it. You’re certainly not seeing the studios do it. I mean, obviously on social media there’s a lot of synthetic performance, and then the fear is like, well, everybody’s gonna do it. but I guess it what it does feel like, and again, we’re not seeing it at scale, it’s not happening yet.

But it does feel like actors are the first creative workers whose labor, identity, body, voice, and economic future can all be technologically separated from the person. And, you know, I’m trying to sort of frame that without being bombastic, but it that’s that’s sort of how it feels at the moment. Is is that the right way to think about it?

Duncan Crabtree-Ireland (46:53.206)
You know, I

I think it kind of depends on what the nature is of what’s being done, to be honest with you. I think it is true. certainly on social media, there are you know, c digital creators and influencers who are using AI tools to replicate themselves for their own work, whether it’s voice, I think in the voice area the capabilities have become particularly strong, and so that is a concern. I would also say when you think about sort of the kinds of performances.

Performances that are particularly meaningful, whether that is Meryl Streep doing one of her transformative performances, or whether it is someone delivering a comedic performance that really hits you in the in the heartstrings. Those are things that don’t just happen. Those are things that are very carefully crafted by people who are not only talented but have put a lot of effort into building their craft. And

They often result from the interaction of performers together. And I think that when you look at the kinds of things, at least right now, that generative AI is able to create, those interactions, those special moments, those are very hard for these technologies to create. I think also if you talk to directors or showrunners, for example, who have attempted to experiment with AI, what they have found is AI.

is very hard to direct. You can, you know, if you’re using prompt engineering to try to achieve a particular outcome, it is very hard to iteratively get the exact result you want. You know, if you have an actor and you’re on a set and they deliver a performance and you it’s great, but it’s just there’s something else you need and you communicate with them about it, then do it again, they’re gonna, you know, integrate that direction. it is very hard to prompt engineer your way into that kind of result. So I think that

Duncan Crabtree-Ireland (48:53.77)
The technical capabilities are really not quite there for what we’re mostly talking about, but I don’t want to be polyana about it. You know, it is a question whether you know how long it will take and if those capabilities will eventually be developed. And also, there is work that maybe doesn’t require that precise kind of level of interaction or whatever. And I think in some of those areas we’re seeing that happen. I would also note though, you know, take take digital creators, take influence.

A lot of what the most popular and successful influencers deliver is a relationship, a perceived relationship with their fans and their audience, right? Someone buys a product because they trust the person who is making a recommendation to them because they think that they have good taste or they think that they are someone who they can rely on to make good decisions and make good recommendations. If people start to think that

That’s just all being driven by corporate marketing budget and there’s no person behind the recommendation. It’s just a an algorithm. I think we’re gonna find that those recommendations no longer hold the same level of influence. So I think that, you know, true influence will come from, as it always has, humans who are admired by others and whose recommendations are followed by others, whether it’s for for for whatever reason.

Orlando (50:13.745)
Mm-hmm.

Orlando (50:21.637)
Yeah. Yeah, you spoke a a little bit about, you know, some of the regulatory things that are happening. And and I think that, you know, and we spoke about earlier the fact that you come at this and came at the negotiations from a sort of, you know, we’re we’re all trying to do the same thing here. We’re all trying to protect the same people and and work in advancement of this art that everybody’s ag agreed is is fantastic and they want to keep doing. You know, I’ve heard you talk about the fact that.

People focus on the conflict very often, more than focusing on the fact that actually everybody’s really aligned. You know, you’ve the No Fakes Act is something that’s been brought up. and I’d love for you to talk more about that and how you see that as a, you know, where everybody is or isn’t aligned.

Duncan Crabtree-Ireland (51:09.159)
I that’s a great example of what you just said. I I love that because the coalition that we’ve been able to help put together in support of the No Fakes Act is truly extraordinary in the sense that there is such a diverse group of interests that are aligned with this legislation. So just for anyone who doesn’t know what it is, the No Fakes Act is a bill that’s pending in Congress now that would give all of us, not just actors or not just my members, but all of us the ability to have control over the use of our image, our likeness and voice.

it it has specific carve-outs for First Amendment protections and other things like that, but basically what it would do is give us a tool to use, all of us, to stop the rampant deep faking of people that is happening right now, whether it’s for commercial purposes. And let me just say, while high-profile examples of this abound, you know, I know people have heard about the examples involving Taylor Swift and Tom Hanks on social media, etc. This can happen to any

Anybody. It’s happened to high school teachers. It’s happened to students. It happened to me during our 2023 contract negotiations. Someone made a deep fake of me. And, you know, I mean, I’m not a celebrity, I’m not an actor. and yet someone wanted to have an impact on our vote on that 2023 contract. So they they took some online video of me and created a deep fake of me saying false things about the contract that tens of thousands of people saw. we will never know how much of an impact that had on the vote.

Orlando (52:16.241)
I’m so glad you brought up. I was right about to.

Duncan Crabtree-Ireland (52:39.027)
But that’s the kind of thing that they’re really people think they have a right to control it, but they don’t have as much rights as they think they do right now. And but we really need it. And so people from certainly our union is one of the sort of sponsors and founders of this, but of this kind of concept. But going across the AFL CAO, so the union side, talking about tech companies like Google and YouTube, for example, OpenAI have signed on to this. We’ve got the studios on board, they’re recorded.

Labels on board, the you know, that there are civil civil society and social justice organizations on board. It’s just a very broad coalition saying, hey, we need to give people some control over that. And fundamentally, what I just like to say to explain to people is you know, it is freedom of speech and freedom of expression is so important to our culture, to our country, and it is just as important to make sure that someone can’t put words in your mouth as to make sure that you can say what.

you want because when someone can falsely attribute opinions or actions to you in a very convincing manner, then no one will ever know what to believe. They will not know what you really think. You won’t be able to exercise your First Amendment rights. And the kinds of abusiveness that’s happened just in the last few years is is crazy. So yeah, that’s a great example of of a really strong coalition coming together.

Orlando (53:58.691)
Yeah.

It must be incredibly disconcerting. I mean, to see your own face say something that you fundamentally disagree with, literally taking putting words in that are the opposite of what you think. And I think that you’ve had an experience very similar to, I think, what a lot of people, you know, certainly the big stars, Scarlett Johansson, I’ve seen, you know, deep fakes of her acting in summer, Liam Neeson, and all of these people. You’re talking about their life’s work.

Duncan Crabtree-Ireland (54:20.759)
Yes.

Orlando (54:27.925)
their their life is performing. They have sought out opportunities and successfully performed. That’s what they do as people. And then to be looking back at yourself, giving a performance that you didn’t give, and similar to what you, you know, kind of experienced, I think that the

There must you’re you’ve you’ve had the experience that they’re having, just at different scales. And I think that must be bring you guys together quite a lot.

Duncan Crabtree-Ireland (54:57.193)
Y it does. I mean, I was working on this, you know, from a professional and sort of academic type perspective before, but I will tell you when you experience it for the first time yourself, it is like you said, it’s a it’s a gut punch because you can intellectually know that that’s wrong, but then to actually see it happening to you is it it feels horrible. And I certainly hope that nobody, you know, I mean obviously some people will, but I I hope we can minimize how many people have to experience that in the future and

One thing I don’t know, thankfully, but a lot of our members do, is what it feels like when that is used to create like non-consensual sexual imagery, like deep fake pornography. And I’m so glad that, you know, we have the Take It Down Act now, which was signed into law by President Trump last year. and it does it essentially provides some kind of remedy for this kind of thing when it’s involving sexualized imagery, but the abuse of this goes so far beyond that.

Orlando (55:35.717)
Yeah. Yeah.

Duncan Crabtree-Ireland (55:57.056)
that we really have to have something that’s more general in application as well. And so I’m very, very eager to see this happen and incredibly appreciative of all the people who’ve worked so hard to get this to get this to this point.

Orlando (56:11.131)
Well, so with all of the coalition of of so many disparate types of groups and companies and individuals signing on to that, what’s the holdup?

Duncan Crabtree-Ireland (56:21.459)
Well, Washington DC is not a it is hard. I mean there’s a few, you know, concerns that have been raised that we’ve mostly addressed about, you know, making sure the First Amendment protections are sufficient, etcetera. But I think it’s more so the fact that

Orlando (56:23.195)
Just re regular government bureaucracy, or is there is there anybody pushing the other direction?

Duncan Crabtree-Ireland (56:40.403)
It’s just really hard to get anything done in Washington. Always has been, but it’s particularly hard right now for obvious reasons. And the way things like this get done is there will be a moment in time that will come when there is an opportunity to get it across the finish line, and we have to be ready to take advantage of that moment in time. And I don’t know exactly when that is yet, but I do know not too long ago we asked our members to start reaching out to their members of Congress and Senators, et cetera, to express their support.

for this bill, and significantly more than 20,000 of our members send in letters and emails and communications to their you know representatives and senators saying this is something that we need done now. So I think there is there’s strong bipartisan support. This is not a partisan thing. It’s not being held up for partisan reasons. We have folks from the far right, the far left and everywhere in between who are in support of this. And so I just think we’re waiting for the right moment for it to happen. And I sure hope that that happens soon because we we need it desperately.

Yeah.

Orlando (57:41.916)
Yeah. Well, I mean, listen, I think that you’re you’ve you’ve done a tremendous job. I think you know, lots of people I speak to think that you’ve done a tremendous job. I mean, it’s it’s it I think that what you said earlier on is being kind of tech agnostic is the right way to go about this. There, you know, you have to create principles that are gonna last beyond any specific, you know.

tech update. but what do you think it means to protect human performance and and human performers wh while distribution, production, identity, and consent are all being technologically rewritten all at the same time?

Duncan Crabtree-Ireland (58:07.314)
Yeah, absolutely.

Duncan Crabtree-Ireland (58:19.473)
Yeah, you I mean I think there are ways to really

Make this technology work in support of human creativity. And there are artists, our members, who really want to work with AI technology because they think it can help them be more creative.

you know this AI technology and deepfakery to abuse the use of her image, likeness, and voice. And on the other hand, she herself as a creative artist wants to have the ability to use the technology to explore and experiment with what she can do. I think that’s the kind of thing that we should all want to support because you know the technology isn’t going away. you know, we made a decision a long time ago in this union and I think it’s true that just fighting to to stop the

advance of technology is a losing battle. It always has been. No union or anyone else in history has been able to just block the advancement of the technology. So what we’ve chosen to do is push to channel it in the best possible direction. That is not going to be 100%. We’re not going to pre- prevent you know we’re not going to prevent 100% of job loss or or disruption from this technology. But if we can help make sure that the focus is on augmenting human creativity as opposed

To just replacing humans and delivering the cheapest possible, you know, trove of AI slop, then I think we’re moving in the right direction. And I do think there is a growing sense from not just artists, but also from the public that we really want to see something that is special and unique. I mean, we live short lives. Who wants to spend their whole life just watching rehashed AI, you know, outputs? I think people want to see something special, unique, creative.

Orlando (01:00:12.529)
Yeah.

Duncan Crabtree-Ireland (01:00:22.043)
That’s why live performance is so popular these days. you know, I mean, people could choose to see to see their favorite artists only in digital form, and yet people are passionate. I mean, we’ve talked about Taylor Swift. I mean, just look at the global phenomenon that was people traveling to go see Taylor Swift live. So I think that that that connection with art and artists and human creativity is long-lasting, and I do think that is ultimately.

Orlando (01:00:25.329)
Mm. Yeah.

Orlando (01:00:43.462)
Yeah.

Duncan Crabtree-Ireland (01:00:51.983)
something that it’s worth fighting for and we can whether we can you know protect it a hundred percent, if we can protect it in a substantial way, that is worth doing and we’re gonna I think certainly our union is gonna fight as hard as we can to make sure that we maximize the protection of human artistry.

Orlando (01:01:01.125)
Mm. Yeah.

Orlando (01:01:10.769)
That’s fantastic. Listen, I think you’re doing a tremendous job of it. just so you know, everybody I I have talked to and and everything I hear is that you’re doing a tremendous job of it. So, you know, look forward to you still being, you know, the the guard at the gates in 2030. But thank you, Duncan.

Duncan Crabtree-Ireland (01:01:20.93)
wow, thank you.

Duncan Crabtree-Ireland (01:01:25.997)
Yeah.

Me too. And you know, but and and you know what? It’s it there’s I just wanna say it’s something we need to all do. And I wanna make sure there are not enough worker voices, there are not enough public voices in this debate. And so anybody who feels passionate about it, I hope you hope you’ll speak up because too many of these conversations are being driven by tech companies and to a certain extent maybe some government officials, but they need to hear our voices because they need to know that people do care about this topic.

And that people and that can help influence those decisions. We are not powerless. We can use our voices and we can make change.

Orlando (01:02:06.563)
Abs a hundred percent. I mean, listen, that’s what we we try to do here is kind of, you know, not take an evangelical stance or a, you know, doom doomsday or stance, but just kind of have smart people like yourself on here and just actually talk about what this means. Cause I think that all of the good conversation happens in the middle and the the mean between the two extremes.

Duncan Crabtree-Ireland (01:02:27.701)
Yeah. Well thanks for helping educate people about this and so many other topics. I really think that you’re right. Like having that dialogue is is how we how we move things forward.

Orlando (01:02:37.635)
Absolutely. Duncan, thank you so much. I so appreciate that. I I learned so much. I really, really appreciate you giving us your time.

Duncan Crabtree-Ireland (01:02:44.677)
it was an honor. Thanks so much, Orlando. I d have loved being on, so thank you.

Orlando (01:02:48.529)
Absolute pleasure. Come back any time.